Public Accounts Committee on June 3rd, 2008

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That raises two questions. First, when did that review start?

Mr. Chairman, you sent the letter on April 10, if I recall.

[Robert Fonberg]

It was probably within a week of the blueprints actually being discovered, but I don't remember the date.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you. That's good enough.

When did the review of the 8,500 contracts, let between 2002 and 2007, start?

[Robert Fonberg]

When did it start?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Yes.

[Robert Fonberg]

We started with a sample of 100 of those contracts.

[Scott Stevenson]

We started after the AG's report was tabled as part of the action plan.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It has taken us from April to the end of June to review one, and it will have taken us just a couple of months more, until the end of July, to review 8,500. I'll be curious to see, will we get to learn the results of that review of the 8,500 contracts?

[Robert Fonberg]

I'd have to look at those contracts. We can share the issues we've identified issues in those 8,500.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The question, then, is to the Auditor General: do you as an agent of Parliament have the ability, once the cloak of secrecy is imposed on a project, to go and find out? Do you have that?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, we have access to all documents that we require to do our work.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

So if this committee asks you to go and verify whatever documents have been declared classified, which we can't normally see, will you do that?

[Sheila Fraser]

I will certainly consider doing it.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Then we'll have to wait and see what is not given to us and what is declared classified, because too often we put on the cloak of secrecy and then we're shut out. I'm very grateful that you are prepared to at least look at what we're missing.

A final question: does anyone have a sense of how our own policies in handing out contracts and giving them security classifications compare with the policies of our allies?

[Dan Ross, Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence]

My sense is that it would be very similar. Our allies—for example, the Americans, the British—pursue many thousands of contracts every year. They do a security assessment at the beginning of each one to determine which documents or pieces of information need to be protected.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Has that worked? Has a comparison actually been done, or are you presuming--

[Dan Ross]

No.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

So it hasn't been done. Will it be done? Is it something that either Mr. Fonberg or Defence Construction would consider useful?

[Robert Fonberg]

I haven't actually thought about that. It probably would be useful. We might be able to start trying to understand how our NATO allies do their business. There might be some information available there. We would certainly be prepared to have a look at it.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger.

Madame Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I only have one brief question. I find this whole story of lost documents found in rubbish bins embarrassing. Nevertheless, as a former manager of large projects, which I was before I became an MP, I have a reflex that makes me appreciate your current efforts to evaluate the inherent risks of the project, at the very outset. I think that you are on the right track. However, it is a unfortunate that such documents could have been lost.

Also, regarding large projects, there is a documentation system. From my past experience with all things having to do with the banking systems or with certain suppliers through the Canadian Forces, I know that the suppliers are expected to keep very strict documentation.

Mr. Glynn Hines, who is in charge of information management, could perhaps tell us how the major projects of National Defence are documented? Are there any practices for distributing documents, is there any requirement for treating certain documents with special care when they deal with projects? Could he also tell us about the standards for conserving documents, how long they are kept and what kind of documents are kept by the department? Were the plans that got lost in the trash can eventually recovered?

[MGen Glynn Hines, Chief of Staff, Office of the Assistant Deputy Minister, Information Management, Department of National Defence]

As far as the documentation regarding projects goes, all of it is handled in accordance with the government security policy. It's either classified or it's unclassified.

If it's classified, then it's part of documentation in support of a project. It is treated accordingly. The contractor has to have the appropriate security clearances. They're all verified and they're handled accordingly. Whether they're numbered documents and not copyable, whether the contractor has the right storage facilities on-site, whether the contractor is only accessing classified documentation or whether he is required to store it—all these issues are treated as if the contractor were a government employee with the appropriate security clearances.

If it's unclassified documentation, it's treated as unclassified documentation and is controlled accordingly, which means there are very few controls over it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I have just one question for you, Mr. Fonberg. It's probably not a relevant question, but I'm curious as to the circumstances of the individual rooting through the garbage. Apparently somebody was rooting through the garbage and found this.

What are the circumstances? Is this a common practice around Ottawa here?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!