At this point in time, I'd like to call the meeting to order pursuant to the Standing Orders and extend to everyone here a welcome.
Today we have with us Deputy Commissioner Barbara George, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. She is accompanied by her lawyer, Mr. Jack Hughes.
Ms. George and Mr. Hughes, welcome to the committee.
As everyone is aware, this meeting—I don't think it will be a long one—has been called to examine potential alleged discrepancies in the testimony of Ms. George when she first appeared before this committee on February 21 of this year.
I'm just going to make a prepared statement. We're then going to ask Ms. George to reply to the statement, and we'll take it from there.
Ms. George, the committee has called you back because it feels that you were untruthful in your testimony before this committee under oath on February 21, 2007. In particular, the committee's concerns relate to the following testimony, given on that date:
Committee member: “Did you or Mr. Zaccardelli order that Staff Sergeant Frizzell be removed, and was it you or Mr. Zaccardelli who ordered that the investigation be shut down?”
Your answer: “I can state with absolute finality that it was neither Commissioner Zaccardelli nor me who had anything whatsoever to do with, as you say, the removal of Sergeant Frizzell.”
Committee member: “Can you tell us who it was?”
Your answer to that question: “No, I'm not aware of who it was. The best I can state is that when Sergeant Frizzell left, I understood he returned to his home division, which was “A” division. ... I understood it was for health reasons.”
The committee is particularly concerned in your case, Ms. George, as you are a senior uniformed member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and as such, a professional in the field of conducting investigations, gathering evidence, and weighing testimony. You were and are an important witness in the committee's inquiry into the alleged improper use of RCMP pension and insurance plan funds. As Deputy Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police responsible for human resources, you had a central role in the matter under investigation by the committee. There was every reason for committee members to see your testimony as critical to establishing what took place, and you ought to have known this.
In this case, the testimony sought related to a specific situation—namely, the manner by which Sergeant Frizzell was removed from the investigation being conducted into the alleged improper use of RCMP pension and insurance plan funds to meet administrative costs.
You would know, Ms. George, that sworn testimony can be based on either the personal knowledge of the witness as to the relevant facts or the honest belief of the witness where the witness has information on which to base this belief. This is often referred to as testimony based on information and belief.
This is an important consideration with respect to your testimony, Ms. George. As a police officer trained in conducting investigations, gathering evidence, and weighing testimony, you must be familiar with those words, “information and belief”. The courts accept affidavits based on “information and belief”. In your testimony before this committee on February 21, you used the expression “to the best of my knowledge”, and prefaced a response with “I believe”, and at one point you said, “As far as I know, and I believe this to be so...”.
In your testimony on April 30, in a lengthy answer to the same questions posed on February 21 about the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell, you described the events leading up to the removal and explained why it would have been either Assistant Commissioner Gork or Inspector Roy who caused the removal. You shared this with the committee on April 30, but for some reason you couldn't share this with the committee on February 21. Of course, our question is, “Why?”
As well, Mrs. George, you had two meetings with staff prior to the February 21 appearance before this committee and you were warned that the committee might ask you about the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell and whether you caused his removal.
Surely in the course of these preparatory meetings, only a week or so ahead of your appearance before this committee, the circumstances surrounding the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell would have been reviewed and all possible questions to you by the committee considered. In your e-mail of February 12, 2007, to a staff member about these preparatory meetings, you say: “Let's make sure that the Qs and As are as complete as possible.”
Despite this, when you appeared before the committee on February 21 and you were asked who, if it was not you, removed Staff Sergeant Frizzell, you said only that you did not know. In testimony before this committee on April 18, 2007, you testified that on June 20, 2005, which is the day that Staff Sergeant Frizzell was removed from the investigation, Chief Superintendent Lang told you that Staff Sergeant Frizzell had been removed on the orders of Assistant Commissioner Gork.
Two months later you admit to having had knowledge on June 20, 2005, that you denied having when testifying before this committee on February 21, 2007.
The committee heard the testimony of Assistant Commissioner Rogerson on April 30, in which he reviewed the events of June 2005, including his conversation with you by cell phone on June 16, 2005, where he says you indicated that you wanted Staff Sergeant Frizzell removed because he had left a phone message that you thought was harassing your staff. Assistant Commissioner Rogerson testified that he told you that you would need to talk to Assistant Commissioner Gork to get Staff Sergeant Frizzell removed. Assistant Commissioner Rogerson testified that he had first-hand knowledge of what was done and said that the removal related to your harassment allegation against Staff Sergeant Frizzell. Assistant Commissioner Rogerson, in his testimony, showed that Chief Superintendant Lang and Superintendant Newman agreed with him that you were involved in the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell.
Assistant Commissioner Rogerson also showed that you knew exactly who served the removal order on Staff Sergeant Frizzell. Assistant Commissioner Rogerson summarized his testimony on April 30 in the following terms, and I quote:
In summation, the aforementioned info is how I understood things to have been done. Deputy George was actively seeking Staff Sergeant Frizzell's removal because he was harassing one of her employees. Based upon what I've become aware of, this was accomplished through her direct liaison with both Assistant Commissioner Dave Gork and Superintendent Lang shortly after contacting me on June 16. .... The fact remains that the formal removal of Frizzell commenced between June 15 and June 20, 2005. Chief Superintendent Lang's actions were no doubt influenced by Deputy Commissioner George's direct and clear involvement in Frizzell's being served such an order. In this regard, as mentioned, he was contacted by her directly, along with others, during this exact same timeframe. He consulted with them on the order, he served the order, and, when executed, advised them when it was done, which showed that Deputy George also knew about the order and who served it.
You appeared before the committee on April 30, alongside Assistant Commissioner Rogerson, if memory serves. Before Assistant Commissioner Rogerson gave his opening statement, you gave an opening statement in which you set out the e-mail exchanges that showed how you came to believe that Staff Sergeant Frizzell was removed for health reasons, which is what you told the committee on February 21. You said you did not order the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell. Admittedly, this is how the question on February 21 was phrased, whether or not you ordered the removal, but you answered in much broader terms, that you had nothing whatsoever to do with the removal. Your answer on February 21 was unequivocal and unlimited.
By April 30, particularly after the testimony of Assistant Commissioner Rogerson, it was not simply a matter of who ordered the removal but whether you had any involvement in events leading up to the issuance of this order. You had an opportunity to testify more fully in your opening statement about your involvement in the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell, but you did not do so.
It is only after having heard Assistant Commissioner Rogerson's testimony, in which he clearly implicates you in the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell, that you respond more fully to the question that was first put to you by a committee member on February 21 about the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell. Your response was that you only asked that Staff Sergeant Frizzell's harassing behaviour be stopped, not that he be removed.
Eventually, when pressed once again by a committee member whether you requested removal, you answered, “I cannot give you a yes or no answer.” This was two years ago. The committee took this response as indicating an inability to recall the events of two years earlier.
You admitted to speaking with Assistant Commissioner Rogerson, to Assistant Commissioner LaFosse, and to Chief Superintendent Lang, and they recall that you asked for removal. Why is it you can't remember these events in 2005, but these other officers can remember? In other testimony on April 30 you recalled a meeting in 2001 quite vividly.
So, Ms. George, the truthfulness of your February 21 testimony that you didn't know who removed Staff Sergeant Frizzell is hard for this committee to accept in view of the other testimony and evidence before the committee in respect of the events of the period June 15 to June 20, 2005, including the evidence that you were very unhappy with the manner in which Staff Sergeant Frizzell was conducting his investigation, and that you wanted something done about this. When you learned that he had been removed, you were grateful for the quick action taken against Staff Sergeant Frizzell.
Ms. George, with the foregoing in mind, you might understand why members of this committee feel that in your testimony before this committee on February 21 you were less than truthful, and that you knew you were being less than truthful in your testimony. The committee is particularly concerned that false or misleading testimony would be given by a senior uniformed member of that cherished Canadian institution, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
In the circumstances, Ms. George, how can we believe you when you deny, as you did on February 21, with “absolute finality”--to use your words--that you had anything whatsoever to do with the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell?
I'm going to ask you now to respond to that statement, Ms. George.