Public Accounts Committee on March 12th, 2009

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I have so many questions. I'll try to get a few in here if I can.

The overtime is extremely problematic. What bothers me, of course, is the fact that the Auditor General has basically said it wasn't a problem back in 2006, and then all of a sudden it became almost an instant problem.

That, honestly, isn't really an acceptable response here, so I'm going to ask you a very straightforward question. Correction Services went close to three years without a contract and there was a lot of labour unrest. Did that add significantly to the fact that we have a lot of overtime during that period?

[Don Head]

That was definitely a contributor to the overtime billed during that period of time.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Okay. Thank you very kindly.

Secondly, I've spent 35 to 37 years in the food service business and hospitality, and I'm actually blown away that there was no control of food costs, that people didn't actually know what something cost. I don't simply mean the purchase price of an item, but all the ancillary costs with preparation and equipment and everything.

The CSC has been around a long time. In other institutions, in various forms, everybody knows their simple basic costs. How has this gone unattended for so long, to have that kind of dereliction of responsibility?

[Don Head]

I don't think it's a question that the organization didn't know what its costs were. We knew how much we were paying for rations. We know at any given time how much we pay in salaries for staff who work in the kitchens. We know how much we pay for inmate allowances and pay for the inmates who work in those kitchens. We know how much it costs us on a regular basis to replace equipment.

For us, the biggest piece that comes away from the Auditor General's report is that although we knew those costs and we knew what they were, did we give the appropriate attention to finding more efficient ways of doing bulk buying or national buying of certain items? That is something the organization had not looked at but is now committed to do.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

As a simple industry standard, did you monitor your waste?

[Don Head]

That I'd have to check.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

The reason I suggest that is if you happen to be in the hospitality business, you can tell whether that business is successful or a failure just simply due to the waste alone. That tells you whether you have an efficient, effective operation. I realize that's a bit of a simplistic approach, but might I suggest that somehow I can't believe that the institution did not have a better control on that? This report is so damning in that respect that there should be some very specific actions taken with regard to professional standards that should be upheld.

I have another couple of quick questions.

I notice your clothing allowance from 2005 to almost 2007. As a matter of fact, it has doubled or more than doubled in the space of three to five years. How can that be?

[Don Head]

A big part of that was the changeover in uniforms for the correctional officers, a new style of uniform, new materials that were more respective of the kinds of materials appropriate for work in that environment, plus all the accoutrements that we buy. We're in the process of buying stab-resistant vests for staff. So a lot of that is associated with moving to the new uniform for correctional officers.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Okay.

Building on our chair's comment a little bit earlier, there is a perception out there that corrections certainly can keep their prisoners in, but they can't keep contraband out. As such, I've seen a number of proposals from various players in the industry who have suggested better ways to build the mousetrap.

I would like to know whether Correctional Service is willing to look outside the box. I've seen proposals and theories under pilot processes that would definitely help in terms of contraband, with significantly fewer dollars involved than what you're presently undertaking. Would you be receptive to looking at other ideas?

[Don Head]

We're always open to looking at new ideas around stopping the flow of contraband into our institutions. We've been talking with various manufacturers of different pieces of equipment out in the private sector to help us with some of the specific problems. As we've become better at defining the problems we're trying to combat, we've been going outside to the private sector. We've been going outside to international correctional jurisdictions to look at this. But we're always open to any new ideas or suggestions.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I have a quick question.

In managing your overtime, you've suggested, and rightfully so, the challenges you have with the institutional process. I understand. But there are other emergency forces working 24/7 where there are police officers, other emergency things, that are faced with the same type of overtime burden, that do not have problems. Why should you be an exception?

[Don Head]

I agree that we shouldn't be an exception. I think the onus is on us to get smarter and better at the way we manage overtime, to make this a priority for all our senior managers, and to make sure we've got the right tools in place to not only monitor it but also to look at ways of reducing the overtime expenditures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Kramp.

M. Desnoyers, cinq minutes.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Head.

Is there a standard in place for inmates and if so, what is that standard?

[Don Head]

I'm really not sure what the question is. We have standards for offenders in terms of their classification, such as minimum, medium, and maximum security. I'm not quite sure of the question.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'd like to know, for instance if, on average, there is one correctional officer for every ten inmates.

[Don Head]

Okay, I understand now.

A lot of that depends on the physical design of our institutions. We have institutions ranging from the oldest in the country--Kingston Penitentiary is 165 years old--to a few facilities that are just over 10-plus years. Most of our institutions average 40 years. We have just a variety of different designs that had been put in place over the years reflecting different correctional philosophies. Those designs all have inherent security management surveillance problems associated with them, and in order to address them, there are certain standards for the deployment of staff.

Normally we have units of staff that range between 80 and 120 inmates. There may be units within those that range anywhere between 10 to 20 per range. Those are the kinds of standards we have.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

And that would be one for—

[Don Head]

It varies.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So then, as I understand it, it would depend on a number of factors, such as the type of institution. . .

[Don Head]

That's right.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

. . . the age of the facility and its location.

Has the number of inmates housed in these institutions increased significantly over the past several years?

[Don Head]

No. We have periods of time when the population goes up and when it goes down. We have been running around 13,000 inmates inside for the last couple of years. At times it goes a little higher than that; at times it's a little lower. We have around 14,000 cells that are available to us to use, but we also have, on any given day, about 800 offenders who are under a temporary detention order until they're reviewed as to whether they can go back into the community.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do some institutions have a larger inmate population then others?

[Don Head]

Yes. Again, it varies with the design of the institution. We have institutions, such as our healing lodges, which are relatively small, that can have about 100 inmates. Then there are the institutions that have 500 and 600 inmates.