Evidence of meeting #12 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was entities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management and Analysis Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We may have money, but we didn't...we just can't get the right resources, the qualified resources--
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I would just add that there have been several initiatives in government to increase internal audit financial management, so essentially there's been a big recruiting campaign for people with those skills. That is why, when establishing this horizontal internal audit group within the Office of the Comptroller General, it was difficult for them to hire the people, to get the people in. Everybody was looking for the same people at the same time. That, I think, was the major obstacle.
NDP
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much for coming here today.
As I'm not a regular member of the committee, you will excuse me if I'm not 100% up to speed, but I always look at myself as the conduit of the people who elected me to be here to talk to the people they have concerns about, or you may have reciprocal concerns.
My first question is about how I'm very impressed by anybody who can reduce their paper burden by 50%. Most Canadians out there would fall off their chairs in the living room if they heard that, and they would look to Ms. Fraser to verify that this has occurred.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We will, I would expect, at some point do a follow-up audit on this--
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
--and we will be quite glad to report if government has reduced the reporting burden.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you. I'm not necessarily a doubting Thomas, but I worked for the Ontario civil service while Mr. Christopherson was in charge. Let me just say that I wish I had had him at the end of the table, but anyway....
And let me tell you this. Should you ever decide that you need to genuflect, you need to find another job, because none of us in here are worthy of that. One time I was accused of being a micromanager, and I really didn't think I was.
I just toured a lot of manufacturing facilities. I'm very interested in some of Ms. Crombie's submissions, because I think she was right on with some of her questions. Management style is very important to me. I don't know if I'll be sued for saying this, but you know the old McDonald's style, where they decide how much productivity each worker needs? If you don't live up to that productivity, you're out the door. Something tells me most Canadians don't think that's the management style of government, at least not of the federal government.
I gather it isn't, Mr. Wouters.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
I guess the right question to ask would be what you consider to be the federal government's management style, or what kind of management style you would be able to tell Canadians you use.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Can you give me an answer in three or four sentences?
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Can I help you then? I'm going to lead you along, because time is very short. Even though I'm told the organization I worked for doesn't go along with this management style, I sort of liked participatory management.
The thing I like about participatory management is that the first- and second-line supervisors at the top are told, “We want this kind of efficiency”, or “Here's our target. We want to know how to do our job better, and we want to know how to do the job better by the people who actually do the job.” They can't change the policies or the laws, but what they can do is tell us how they can do their job better. Do you do that?
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, we do that. I think the deputy heads do this every day. This is something that I think, more than ever, as long as I've been a public servant... I think the attention given by senior leaders in the public service to management has changed dramatically over the last five to six years.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
No, but I'm talking about the people actually doing that work. Do you give them an opportunity—some time in the workplace—to plan how to go about achieving the goals that management sets for them?
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think it's very participatory. Every organization is different, right? Every department has its own chief executive officer who works with his own management team. You could ask my management team if I'm participatory. I think I am very participatory.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
No, I'm talking about the people who actually do the work saying that they have to fill out 86 darned forms every year and they think they can give you the same result with 50 forms. If the employee comes up with that idea...do you incent people to do those things?
Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, we do. We could do more. I think often when it comes to the administrative burden and rules and procedures, it's the folks at the coal face, those on the ground, who have the best understanding and knowledge of where the problems are.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you. This is very respectful. I don't want to demean the work. Most of the people out there, and especially manufacturers, who I've gone to talk to, in order to keep the people they have working in their plants and offices, have moved to what they call lean manufacturing.
May I respectfully, humbly suggest that you look? We're in a huge economic problem in the world and in this country. I think people need to see leadership from their government. Boy oh boy, would you guys ever score a point with the taxpayers of this country and with the people--especially manufacturers--if you said you were looking at the type of management those folks are doing to keep folks working and that you would like to implement things like lean management and participatory management and look at ways of saving money. That's just something out there that I'm asking you to look at, because that's really important.
Liberal
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Thank you.
I'm going to be very specific with my questions. My questions are to Mr. Salgo, to the Auditor General, and to Mr. Wouters as well.
In my previous life, I sat on boards and chaired boards. We were given parameters. We were told what our legal liability was. We were oriented. What I want to know is, what are some of the parameters that you provide to Governor in Council appointees? What is the orientation you provide? What pool do you choose them from? What skill sets are required? Generally, are these political appointees, or could they be appointees from elsewhere?
Keep that in your mind, because I have a question for the Auditor General.
Madam Fraser, in your paragraph 2.8 in the audit report, you said that the first risk you noticed was that “the practices and procedures for the appointment, orientation, and performance management...did not prevent...the instances of serious abuse and wrongdoing”. What was this serious abuse and wrongdoing?
You also found that accountability was at risk due to “a lack of clarity and consistency in relationships”. I have been told by the chair that if you cannot give me your answers because of time constraints, I'd have to ask for written responses.
The last thing I would like to ask is for the Treasury Board. Page 13 of the report states that there were “20 indicators and 84 measures”. However, the secretariat informed us that only four of these measures were applicable and used to assess small entities, and I guess Mr. Norlock was talking about some creativity. Can you give us an idea of whether there's an action plan to reduce the measurements to relevant measurements so that they are more applicable?
