Evidence of meeting #21 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Joann Garbig
Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
John Wiersema  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Wendy Loschiuk  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order. I want to extend to witnesses, members, and guests a very warm welcome. Bienvenue.

Before we call upon the Auditor General, I just want to relate this to the committee. We passed a motion about our meeting on May 26. I just want to let you know the outcome.

I think everything's resolved reasonably satisfactorily--without too much difficulty, I should point out--although we have to split the meeting somewhat. The clerk and I are recommending the following.

On May 26 we have the national security intelligence. We had five or six witnesses, and we were having extreme difficulty getting any communication. That's been resolved. We have confirmed all the witnesses coming that day, with the exception of the Commissioner of the RCMP. We're going to hear him for the first 30 minutes on May 28.

So we can have the meeting. It's not a perfect answer, but we did have five senior officials, and once you start moving it, that becomes difficult. That's what the resolution is.

Yes, Mr. Christopherson.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, was there a deputy available for that time? Splitting them is very awkward. We've done it once or twice. It doesn't allow a lot of continuity of questioning.

Is there an option of having a deputy commissioner come in his stead?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'll ask the clerk to respond.

3:30 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Joann Garbig

The RCMP informed me that they could make available two deputy commissioners on May 26.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Well, they've been more than fair. I can appreciate there's conflicting scheduling and he's offered to come two days later, so I don't sense a situation where he's resisting us and throwing up roadblocks.

I think it's up to us to decide, Chair, whether it's in our best interest in terms of the work we're trying to do whether to split it up and have the commissioner, or allow it all to happen on one day but go with...and they've offered us two deputies.

Given that we have clear evidence that the commissioner is not trying to avoid us, I would suggest to colleagues that maybe it is in the best interest of work in this circumstance that we go with the deputies and stay to the one session.

But those are just my thoughts off the top of my head. Given the fact that we know the commissioner...and if it weren't for that piece, I wouldn't be so willing. But in this case I think it's clear the commissioner is not attempting in any way to avoid us.

Maybe it's in our best interest to go ahead with deputies. But I'd be interested to hear from colleagues.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I should point out we've had total cooperation from the RCMP, from the office of the commissioner.

Your suggestion is a very good one.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I'd be interested in what my colleagues think.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Does anybody have any difficulty with what Mr. Christopherson proposes? No?

Okay. We'll consider that as taken. We'll do it that way and leave it at May 26.

Now we're back to hearing from Ms. Fraser. Again, welcome. This meeting is called pursuant to the standing orders to deal with the spring 2009 Report of the Auditor General of Canada, all six chapters. She's accompanied by John Wiersema, Deputy Auditor General; Doug Timmins, Assistant Auditor General; and Wendy Loschiuk, Assistant Auditor General.

I should point out to members of the committee that Scott Vaughan, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, is not here, but I understand that the auditor's office is prepared to entertain questions if anyone does have any questions, although our mandate, of course, is the public accounts committee.

Without any further delay, I'm going to ask you, Ms. Fraser, for your opening remarks.

3:30 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We are pleased to present our 2009 spring report, which was tabled in the House of Commons this past Tuesday, May 12. As you mentioned, I'm accompanied by John Wiersema, Deputy Auditor General, and Doug Timmins and Wendy Loschiuk, assistant auditors general.

Our job is to provide parliamentarians with reliable and independent information on how well the federal government manages and spends taxpayers' dollars and whether it keeps its environmental and sustainable development commitments.

Before I present the details of our individual audits, I would like to raise a matter that has implications for all of our audit work, and that is the government's approach to documenting its analysis of policy initiatives submitted by departments and agencies.

Central agencies have an important role in ensuring that policy and recommendations put to Cabinet have been thoroughly analyzed. In one audit for this Report, we wanted to see that this had taken place — not to question the recommendations or decisions but to see that the analysis had been carried out.

We were told that it had taken place but that the only evidence was in the recommendations to the Treasury Board and Cabinet, documents that we do not see or wish to see. We believe this analysis should be documented in a form that can be made available to us.

I strongly urge the government to ensure that relevant analysis is documented and maintained in information systems. Should the analysis not be available to us, I must conclude that it was not performed.

Mr. Chair, I would like to now turn to last Tuesday's report. Let me begin with our audit of the government's use of gender-based analysis in its policies and programs.

Gender-based analysis is used to assess how spending initiatives and policy proposals might differ in their impact on men and on women. The federal government committed in 1995 to implement this tool throughout its departments and agencies. However, it has not made it mandatory. Our examination of seven departments showed that despite the fact that some departments and central agencies are making efforts to consider gender differences in designing their programs, the 1995 commitment has still not been implemented.

Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is clearly a leader in this area as the only department that has fully implemented the elements of a sound framework for gender-based analysis. On the other hand, Transport Canada and Veterans Affairs Canada have no framework.

We also found that very few of the departments that perform gender-based analysis can show that the analyses are used in designing public policy. Their proposals to Cabinet and to the Treasury Board provided little information on how policies would specifically affect women and men.

The government has recognized that policy decisions can affect men and women differently. It should keep its longstanding commitment to consider these differences in developing its policies and programs.

Turning now to the government's management of intellectual property. Intellectual property refers to legally protected rights, such as patents and copyrights in the industrial, scientific, literary, and artistic fields. The federal government generates intellectual property through its own activities as well as activities carried out by the private sector under federal contracts for goods and services.

Intellectual property is a valuable asset that can provide social and economic benefits to Canadians. For example, National Research Council Canada developed a vaccine for meningitis that is used in Canada as well as internationally. In addition to the health benefits, it has generated over $25 million for the organization.

We found that despite their significant expenditures on science and technology, Health Canada and Fisheries and Oceans Canada have identified little intellectual property developed by their scientists and researchers. None of the three organizations that were audited adequately identify and report whether work performed under contract is likely to generate intellectual property.

As well, the government's policy requires that, apart from some specific exceptions, ownership of intellectual property resulting from contracted activities should go to the contractor to increase the potential for commercialization. Yet Health Canada and Fisheries and Oceans Canada retained ownership in more than half the contracts examined where intellectual property was reported, often without adequate justification.

We did see some good practices by the National Research Council that other departments and agencies could adopt to improve their own management of intellectual property.

The Report also looks at how the government ensures the health and safety of federal employees working in office buildings administered by Public Works and Government Services Canada. The Department administers more than 1,400 buildings in all regions of the country, where more than 230,000 public servants work. Individual departments have a responsibility for the health and safety of their employees working in those buildings.

Many of the federal departments we audited did not clearly understand their roles and responsibilities for fire safety planning. Although departments are required to hold fire drills every year, they could not demonstrate that they were doing so in 18 of 54 buildings covered by our audit.

We also found that for the majority of buildings in our audit, departments had not submitted fire safety plans to Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, as required. During our audit, and in response to letters we sent to departments indicating the serious nature of these shortcomings, we noted that many of the departments took corrective action.

In addition, we found that Public Works and Government Services Canada has clear policies for managing the condition of the office buildings it administers. However, it could not demonstrate that it consistently corrects high-priority deficiencies in these buildings. The federal government has an obligation to protect the health and safety of its employees. It has appropriate policies in place, and it should ensure that departments follow them.

Let me go back to Chapter 4. There's an issue that came to our attention during our financial audits of the Canada Revenue Agency. The Agency has incurred more than $90 million in unnecessary interest costs over the past three years, as a result of large balances that a number of corporations have been keeping on deposit with the Agency. The Agency has a responsibility to ensure that it does not make large interest payments that could be avoided. It has recognized for years that certain corporations might be leaving large balances in their accounts to take advantage of favourable interest rates.

The Canada Revenue Agency needs to develop a robust administrative policy on managing advance deposits and apply it consistently to reduce unnecessary interest costs.

We also examined the Department of National Defence's financial management practices. National Defence has a yearly budget of about $19 billion and manages more than $33 billion in equipment, inventory, and real estate around the world.

Its financial decisions have long-term impacts, not only on the department but also on national security. We found that while National Defence has taken steps to improve financial management and control, its systems and practices do not adequately support financial decision-making for the medium or long term. The department needs more highly developed financial management practices to meet the demands of its complex operations.

We found that National Defence lacks a corporate business plan that aligns its operations with its investments and the Canada First Defence Strategy. In addition, we saw no evidence that senior decision-makers are routinely briefed on the status of key risks. In addition to better information, senior management at National Defence needs to be more involved in financial management. It will take strong leadership and commitment to make the necessary changes.

The next issue was brought to our attention in August 2006 by Natural Resources Canada. In response to concerns raised by NRCan's internal auditors, we examined five contribution agreements, and we found a serious conflict of interest. A consultant who helped the department develop two contribution programs also worked for organizations that received funding under the same programs. We were very concerned that, knowing all the circumstances, the department went ahead with these contribution agreements without identifying this obvious conflict of interest.

Furthermore, NRCan made over $3.2 million in payments to an organization of which the consultant was the president, despite evidence that it was insolvent and was not paying its subcontractors. This was contrary to the terms and conditions of the contribution agreement. Natural Resources Canada needs to develop policies and guidance on conflict of interest for contribution agreements to prevent a recurrence of this type of problem.

Finally, we are also presenting the main points of special examinations of eight crown corporations that we completed in 2008. We identified significant deficiencies in three of these corporations. Crown corporations represented an important part of federal government activity. They employ 92,000 people and manage $185 billion in assets. They are accountable to Parliament through the responsible minister, and special examinations are an important mechanism in their accountability.

The report tabled on Tuesday contains two chapters from the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. Unfortunately, the commissioner is unable to be here today, so on his behalf I would like to take a few minutes to summarize the finding of those two chapters for you.

Let me begin with the section on protecting fish habitat. We examined the role played by two federal departments, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Environment Canada, in the protection of fish habitat. Fish habitat is a national asset. It provides food and shelter for aquatic wildlife, as well as water for human consumption. We found that efforts to protect fish habitat have been inadequate. In the 23 years since the habitat policy was adopted, we found that some parts of it had not been implemented at all, and others only partially. This could be putting fish habitat in jeopardy.

We found limited information regarding the state of fish habitat across Canada. Fisheries and Oceans Canada does not know whether its actions are achieving the stated objective of the habitat policy—that is, to contribute to a net gain in fish habitat.

We noted that Environment Canada has not identified what it has to do to fulfill its responsibilities under the Fisheries Act related to prohibiting the deposit of harmful substances like pollutants into waters that contain fish. We found that it does not have a systematic approach that allows it to focus its resources where significant harm is most likely to occur.

Finally, we found little formal coordination between the two departments to set priorities or to develop common criteria for habitat protection.

The Fisheries Act is among the most important laws of the federal government intended to promote environmental protection and conservation. We are concerned that many of the issues identified in our audit have been raised repeatedly over many years, and they are still unresolved.

Turning now to the Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act. The Act was passed by Parliament in 2007. It requires the government to produce a plan each year showing how Canada will meet its obligations under the Kyoto Protocol by 2012.lt also requires the Commissioner to issue reports to Parliament on Canada's progress. This is our first report in accordance with these obligations.

The government has completed two climate change plans, which include targets for reductions in emissions of greenhouse gas within the Kyoto Protocol period, 2008 to 2012. We found that the plans are missing some of the information required under the Act.

We found that the government will be unable to determine actual emission reductions achieved for each of the measures in its plans as the act requires. Without a system to count real emission reductions that result from its measures, the government will not be able to inform Parliament whether the measures are working. We also found that Environment Canada has overstated the expected reductions in greenhouse gas emissions for the 2008-2012 Kyoto Protocol period.

Environment Canada has accepted most of our recommendations and has committed to follow through on them in the next climate change plans.

Mr. Chair, I thank you. This concludes my opening statement. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee members may have.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Ms. Ratansi.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you, and thank you all for being here.

I will go directly to chapter 4. In 4.18, you talk about the agency's not having a comprehensive policy or guidance to staff on how to manage advance deposits. Has the agency made any progress? Have you had any indication that the agency is attempting to overcome this problem?

You said you have a $90-million over-interest payment over the past three years, which is a conservative estimate. Corporations, according to sources, are parking their money because perhaps the CRA gives more interest. I'd like to know what interest the CRA pays them, and whether the CRA puts this money somewhere. Does it put it in a treasury bill? Does it put it in an interest-bearing account? What is the spread under which they can reduce their disadvantage? How much money are we talking about in these deposits?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

In fact there is no administrative policy. The only indication we had of any kind of advice or recognition of this issue was on the back of the remittance slip for corporations that remit funds, or in certain presentations, for example, to the Canadian Tax Foundation conference. There is no direct policy within the agency.

It is understandable that corporations, even individuals, will pay money in advance, if they expect there will be a reassessment or an assessment of taxes, in order to avoid penalties and interest payments. We found in this case that in the three years we looked at, approximately $4 billion was on deposit for corporations, and there was no indication that there were audits ongoing or there was any possibility of reassessment. Those amounts had been there fairly consistently.

The agency pays interest essentially at the rate of treasury bills plus 2%. The cash it receives goes into the consolidated revenue fund and is used in the government's overall treasury management. Interest is paid to these corporations whenever the money is withdrawn from the accounts.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

There are generally 50 corporations that account of two-thirds of the $4-billion deposit. Does the agency have any risk assessment methodology to assess whether...? Corporations fear that if they underpay or are assessed, interest will be charged to them from that day. That's fair enough, and we understand that. But there are 50 corporations that are probably the largest holders of these deposits. Does't the CRA do some historical analysis, risk assessment, or risk management strategy so they can minimize the amount of interest they have to pay?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

They first looked at this in 2007-08 to see if the advance deposits of these corporations could be related in any way to the possibility of an assessment. That's when they started to recognize that they were not managing these deposits sufficiently and they needed to manage them much more actively. So they need to do more management of this.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Does it require legislative changes, or just a change in administrative practices?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

There are probably two solutions to this. One is to simply manage it to identify and develop an administrative policy on when advance deposits should be accepted and maintained; or perhaps a policy around how you refund these amounts.

I mean, the agency tried to decrease the amount of deposits. They called up some of the taxpayers and asked if they'd like to get their money back. They said, no, thank you. The agency didn't go any further. There's an issue about why they can't just issue the check.

Then of course there's the policy issue around the interest rate, which we have not commented on. That is perhaps something worth looking at.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

So there's work to be done.

My other question deals with gender analysis. You mentioned that you have looked at 68 initiatives, and there is disparity between what the government does in different departments.

In 2007 we called you before the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, where we had finished a study on gender analysis. And in 2006...basically, prior to that, in 2002, Status of Women Canada started working on gender analysis. They went to departments and did the training, but once the funding got cut there was not much to be done.

Implementing gender-based analysis through the budget is very intelligent and economically effective, because other countries, such as Sweden and Norway, have done it. As you mentioned, it meets the Charter of Rights.

Would having a gender commissioner within the PCO be a better methodology to bring cohesion? Everybody's doing either some, or none, etc.

Secondly, you mentioned that Finance develops and implements policy, during which it carries out GBA. You said it uses a template. When I looked at the template that Finance gave us, it didn't have any analysis I could verify that helped women. The women who were reviewed generally earned 70% of what men earned. Some of the policies, like pension-splitting, were not verifiable.

Did you take a look at the template or the veracity of the template? What would you suggest?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

On the first question of a commissioner, when I appeared before the committee I indicated that this was a policy decision, and should Parliament wish to create a commissioner, that was not for us to comment on. But from this audit, I think we show that a lot can be done without necessarily creating a commissioner.

Status of Women has done a lot of training on this, and I think our recommendations point to that. They need much more support from the central agencies--notably Privy Council Office and the Treasury Board Secretariat--to ensure that the analyses are done.

In all honesty, a commissioner would probably say they were not doing the analyses, so you would have to go back to the central agencies that have a bit of clout in the system to make that occur. There are departments that have many of the elements one would expect in a framework; they just have to be extended further.

On the question of the checklist, we were aware of it. The difficulty we have is that many of the documents and analyses.... As I mentioned in the beginning, we were told that the challenge function we would expect to see was not documented in a form that could be made available to us. Many of the budget documents are of a type of cabinet confidence that is also not available to us. They included the analysis with the recommendations to the minister, and we do not see recommendations to ministers, nor do we want to see them.

That could only be resolved by having a different structure of documents with the analysis completely separate. I don't think Finance is going to do that for us, quite frankly.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you.

Ms. Faille, You have seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you .

We're getting increasingly used to seeing you here at meetings of the committee. I must confess that I have some trouble with the problems that crop up again and again in every chapter. For me, it's like déjà-vu. When we look at the problems one at a time and start to accumulate all the recommendations you've made in the past, it looks as though things are not going so well in some of the departments among those that were examined.

Chapter 4 talks about the Canada Revenue Agency. When you did your last audits, you drew attention to some major issues within this department respecting the management of international transactions. There is a lack of commitment with regard to tax havens. Now the government is allowing corporations to leave balances on deposit, on which it pays higher interest. Fifty corporations paid over two-thirds of these deposits.

Have you noticed an increase in the number of corporations taking advantage of this provision? According to your comments, the departments tried to sort things out for 2007-2008. Can you give some idea where these corporations come from? What are these corporations? These are pretty significant amounts of money; mention is made of $4 billion. In a time of economic slowdown, in tough economic times, I have a hard time understanding why a company would leave its money on deposit instead of using it and investing it.

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Mr. Chair, I hope you will understand that I cannot reveal any information that might identify the corporations, because they are protected under tax legislation.

What I can say is that the amounts on deposit have remained fairly stable. We can also assume that a Treasury bill that pays plus 2%, in a very secure investment, is a very good investment.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Yes, it's a very good investment. We don't have anything, however, to show that these corporations have not asked for grants from the government as well. Maybe some cross analyses should be carried out.

In the current context of economic slowdown, I think that some questions should be asked: are these people leaving their money dormant? How is it accounted for? Do these people ask the government for grants? Do they get funds?

4 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I don't think that grant conditions—perhaps I'm going too far—are restricted to companies that don't have any investments or money on deposit. So, if they meet the criteria of the program concerned, they're entitled to the same grants as any other company.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

It's just that it's not very logical. If, on the one hand, these companies get grants or qualify for funds—I understand that there are conditions to be met—and that they leave this money dormant while, on the other hand, people need money to boost an entire sector of the economy, like the manufacturing or forestry sector, there's an injustice here. This is an illustration of the situation. I know you can't answer, but it's sort of an example of the way the system works.

In addition, in Chapter 5, regarding National Defence, we learn that $300 million has had to be put back in the consolidated fund on account of poor planning. You also have a criticism in connection with Defence Plan Online.

Can you explain to us what the problems are concerning Defence Plan Online and tell us why this is not an activity plan according to your criteria?