Public Accounts Committee on May 26th, 2009

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's now renewed, sir?

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

That has been renewed. I can't give you the exact date, but it was renewed quite a while back.

[Suzanne Hurtubise]

I believe it was December of 2006.

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

Yes. It was quite a while back; I was involved in that.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. That's helpful.

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

The MOU with regard to Transport had to do with sharing of criminal intelligence from the databases that we have and that we are stewards of. There are different kinds of databases. We're the stewards for the national police services, CPIC and all kinds of others. It's not just our information; it's also that of other police agencies.

There were issues around how much information we were getting from Transport that would allow us to better do our searches. As well, there were issues around privacy and legal issues that were quite complex and took some time to hammer out, but we were able to do that.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

With these memorandums in place now, does that now also eliminate the concern around consensus decision-making? That delay is no longer built into the system, as the auditor mentioned on page 11, in paragraph 1.19?

[Sheila Fraser]

I can certainly talk to that.

Paragraph 1.19 refers to what we found in 2004. Paragraph 1.27 is what the situation was at the time of our audit.

You will note that in paragraph 1.28 we mention the new memorandum of understanding between the RCMP and CSIS, but we indicate that the committee still works very much on a consensus basis, so at times there can be delays in--

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The question is still relevant, then. It's still timely.

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, absolutely.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.

Hopefully I can get an answer on how you're going to grapple with that.

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

Perhaps I can get more clarification on the question. Are you discussing a time gap with regard to sharing of information with CSIS?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, to the best of my knowledge, what we're talking about is that a number of agencies come together to make decisions around what they're going to do with certain information, or how they're going to get information. Because it was on a consensus basis, often decisions weren't made. They couldn't come to an agreement, so it would wait.

The auditor is pointing out that this delay is a problem in the decision-making process in terms of security. She's indicating, as you just heard, that it still remains at least a question, if not a concern.

Is that fair...?

Yes. Okay.

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

I'm not sure I can answer that. In terms of criminal investigations and a national security point of view, there's no consensus. It's between CSIS and ourselves. We are independent with regard to when and how we start a criminal investigation.

We get information from CSIS on intelligence with regard to a target, or a number of targets. At that point, we continue independently with our investigations. There's no consensus.

I'm not sure exactly what issue we're talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We have to move on, Mr. Christopherson. You'll have another slot later on.

Mr. Saxton, you have seven minutes.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all for coming out here today.

Madam Morin, in your opinion, are we safer today than we were in 2001, and if so, why?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Saxton, that's a very big question. I would have to begin by acknowledging that we are living in a very complex world from a security environment point of view. You all saw yesterday what happened in North Korea, so the complexity of the challenges we are facing has grown, if anything.

This being said, I believe we are much better organized today to face those challenges. From a coordination point of view, from an integration of intelligence point of view, I do believe that we have an excellent security and intelligence apparatus in Canada. So I would tell you that I personally believe that much progress has been made since 2001 to bring this level of coherence and coordination that the Auditor General referred to twice before in her audits. We do have a very comprehensive deputy ministerial committee structure to analyze issues, to provide recommendations to government on policy. I believe this structure actually is serving the government and the country very well.

I am confident that we have done much to achieve the objectives of thorough coordination when it comes to security and intelligence. We have to remain vigilant, and we still have some progress to achieve.

That's what I would answer to that question. Thank you.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you.

Can you share with us some of the actions that have been taken to help us become better prepared, as you said we are now?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Certainly. First of all, I should refer to the yearly process of determining priorities for the intelligence community. As departments and agencies, we do take a full scan of security and intelligence challenges. We distill those, and on the basis of that analysis we are able on a yearly basis to present to the government recommendations in terms of intelligence priorities. So this is a process that I believe works much better today than was the case in years past.

What we have done as well is we have struck a number of working groups on very specific issues that we believe require specific attention on the part of the community. So we have both very broad discussions around what I would call horizontal challenges from a security point of view—they'd be, for example, the situation today in Afghanistan or Pakistan—and we will also meet and discuss very discrete issues as they relate to national security and intelligence.

My colleagues all work with me in this coordinated structure, and I'm quite confident they would agree that we are working very effectively as a community.

Perhaps one more point that I would like to volunteer is that of course we have here a Westminster style of government. The ultimate accountability for the various ministries and agencies goes to ministers, but the way we have sort of constructed our work around the security and intelligence community is very much similar to, for example, the United Kingdom, Australia, or New Zealand. So inasmuch as they are very important partners for us from a national security point of view, we are also very mindful of the value of exchanging best practices as we seek to ameliorate the way we carry out our duties here.

Thank you very much.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Madame Morin.

My next question is for the Auditor General. Madam Auditor General, can you explain to us what the government has done lately that assures that Transport Canada and the RCMP are working better together?

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I noted in the opening statement, we are aware that the new memorandum of understanding was signed in early April, I believe. We of course have not assessed what kind of information exchange is going on, but we certainly view that as a positive step.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you.

My final question is for the deputy minister. Can you elaborate on this new memorandum of understanding for us, please?

[Louis Ranger]

I indicated earlier that one of the issues was of privacy of information, and we are now building in a new questionnaire and a new application form, a pretty extensive section, where we would have very explicit consent from the applicant so the information can be used.

Another issue is obvious--a resource issue. I'll give you numbers: 40,000 to 45,000 applications a year. In my department alone we have 48 people reviewing that full-time, not counting resources from the RCMP. As we discuss the heavier workload and as we request the RCMP to make better use of all the databases, there are resource implications, and we have come to an agreement on how we will help support the resource issue. The RCMP has also contributed to that solution, so it's a joint effort. But I must say, this has come a long way in helping us establish a very stable working relationship, and it's a five-year agreement.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you very much.

No further questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Saxton.

Madame Zarac, four minutes.