Thank you.
Evidence of meeting #34 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #34 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Merci, Madam Faille.
Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson, for up to five minutes.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Welcome to all our guests. I hope you have a wonderful time here.
I would just say to the Danish delegation that I'm proud to carry the name, but I have to tell you, that's as far as it goes. There's no other tie to the culture. The reality is—I'm giving you my family history here, but it's part of this—that was my father's stepfather. That's where the Danish came from. I've been proud to wear it. I got all the credit for how wonderful your country is, and it's been wonderful, but I'm actually Dutch by blood on my father's side.
I won't go into my Australian context, because I already bored them with that story the other day when I met with them.
This is a great delegation. I'm thrilled that you're all here.
I want to open up my remarks by saying how impressed I was with the calibre of the Auditor General from Australia and your delegation yesterday. Like the chair and the other vice-chair, as a vice-chair I was interviewed yesterday. I enjoyed it thoroughly. On the level of professionalism, the highest compliment I can pay you is that it meets the same standard that Madam Fraser brings to auditing here in Canada. I was very impressed.
I want to also say this to all our guests so that they know what esteem we have for Madam Fraser and her shop and all the people there, in terms of her leadership and the quality of it and also in terms of the quality of her person. I say this because you need to know how strongly we feel. I can tell you that the Canadian people see her as being on their side. Every time they see Madam Fraser on TV, they look at her and say, “That's my fighter, and she's there making sure that my bucks are being taken care of.” And that's well earned.
Having said that, I do have a question or two.
3:55 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
3:55 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
First, I won't use the word “collusion”, because that's a bit strong, but I have to say that I don't think I've ever seen coordinated opening statements quite the same as I have here now. You didn't read them, but under the....
There's a reason why I'm raising this.
Mr. Jarrett, in your comments, you were going to say, “As noted by the Auditor General, this is a very comprehensive review.” But then you got kind of screwed up because you went first instead of second. Madam Fraser's comments say, “The peer review now under way is even more comprehensive....” It looked to me like there was a little bit of coordination and we don't normally have that.
I raise that by asking one question. We rely so much, particularly those of us who are not professionals, not auditors, on the professionalism of everything to do with the Auditor General's shop. It's so important and it's so detailed that we need to know.
Your check on this is critical for us, because we have no idea, really, of how to look at it from the outside in the way that you're going to.
My question to you is this. In order to give us the full comfort we need, what assurance, Mr. Jarrett, can you give us, on behalf of the auditing team, that we don't have to worry or be concerned about the clubbiness, if you will, of auditors general around the world?
You go to the same conferences and I'm sure you go to social events or have dinners when you're meeting, so you do get to know one another. What assurance can you give us that we need not worry at all that, on something that's a judgment call, good old Sheila is going to be a priority over good old Canada's ways of doing things?
I know the answer, but I think it needs to be asked. I'd just like to hear you say it. Put it on the record, if you would, please, sir.
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Performance Audit Services Group, Australian National Audit Office
Could I please actually explain to you so that I can give you some level of comfort about the opening statements?
I arrived here on Monday morning. The Auditor General's opening statement was already prepared. It was just coincidence, I have to tell you, that the word “comprehensive” got in there. The reason it is classed as comprehensive—and I think any audit office would say it—is that it covers every one of the practices and most of the support services that support the practices.
I'd also like to make the point that, from the point of view of the independent nature of it, perhaps it also helps the committee to know that I've personally been involved in a number of peer reviews, and I have been led by Canada, and I can assure you that everyone on that team brings to them a level of experience and professional judgment.
Equally, when it comes to making the findings of those reviews, they are done and treated with the respect they deserve. There is no collusion. There is no point where we sit down and argy-barge over what they are. We will do our utmost—
4 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Unless you watch Coronation Street, you don't get it very much.
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Performance Audit Services Group, Australian National Audit Office
So all I can do is assure you that we do bring a level of independence that is recognized and respected by the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Professional Services Branch, Australian National Audit Office
If I could just add something, too, the Auditor General expects us to raise everything we're concerned about. She also expects a robust debate and discussion and clear reporting about what we think, and that's what's going to happen.
Another thing is that we're a long way away from Canada.
4 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
We know where you are.
Thank you very much, and thank you for all you're doing.
Thank you, Chair.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I may share my time with my colleague Mr. Weston if I have any time left over.
I would also like to begin by welcoming our friends from Australia to Canada and also from the other countries--the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden--all countries and peoples that we hold in very high esteem. So we appreciate that you're doing this for us.
To Ms. Cass, have you done a peer review of this type before?
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Performance Audit Services Group, Australian National Audit Office
Yes, I have.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
And has Mr. Jarrett also been involved in a review of this type before?
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Professional Services Branch, Australian National Audit Office
Not an international one...well, not as comprehensive as this one. I oversaw peer reviews of the New Zealand audit office and some of our state audit offices. I'm also responsible for quality assurance within our office, the Australian National Audit Office.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Could you share with us the budget that you have for this review?
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Professional Services Branch, Australian National Audit Office
I can say the budget is as much as we need. It has been made very clear that doing a comprehensive and appropriate job is the most important factor. That's not to say there isn't control over what we spend, but we haven't been set a budget within. Basically, we've said this is what we need to do the job, and that's what has been agreed upon.
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Performance Audit Services Group, Australian National Audit Office
I think it's important to point out that the budget really covers our travel costs, our own salaries, and the time we spend on the peer review is actually borne out by our own audit offices around the world.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
For that we thank you very much.
I was going to ask at what stage your audit is, but I understand you just got here on Monday, so I presume it's--
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Performance Audit Services Group, Australian National Audit Office
No, I should explain that.
As I mentioned, we have been here a couple of times before. That allowed us to do the planning and the groundwork for the peer review. The second time around, it allowed the team to get a very good understanding of the OAG's work, how it undertakes its practices, how it undertakes its auditors, what's involved in their quality management frameworks.
Coming back for this third time is where we actually look at the implementation of that framework, by going through and doing a thorough review of the audits that we've sampled.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Thank you very much.
At this point, I'll pass the mike over to my colleague Mr. Weston.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Andrew.
Welcome to all our guests. It's quite a remarkable thing; I don't think we could have invented this process if you didn't come to us with it. It reminds me of that Latin phrase, which I'm sure I will mangle, quis custodiet custodes, or who takes care of those who are supposed to watch over us?
Given the reverence, as you've heard, with which we hold our Auditor General, we're all kind of concerned that you might find something that we don't want to hear. But what would be the worst thing that you would be able to find? That would be a hypothetical situation, and then I'm going to ask you for a more concrete one. In other audits, what's the worst thing that you have found, or the most surprising thing that is perhaps of note to the citizens of the country where that audit took place?