Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 4th, 2009

[Sheila Fraser]

Not really. We do note in the report that there are issues with resources in the department: very high vacancy rates, a very significant movement of people. I think it's something like over 70% who have moved.

[Wendy Loschiuk]

In some cases, yes.

[Sheila Fraser]

So there is a lot of turnover and movement, which of course makes things difficult to get things done.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, we have run into that in a number of audits.

[Sheila Fraser]

As to why that is occurring, that is something that would have to be reviewed with the department.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

Then in the same chapter, on page 19, we have the first responder and the voice communications. Again, like Mr. Shipley, I hearken back to my city council days, and I can remember that even back then, which is getting further back every day, this issue was real. I know that in the last few years my home town, Hamilton, spent millions of dollars just to make sure they could communicate within our city and within the general region. But I don't know whether or not they have the ability to communicate on a larger scale, to interact provincially, federally, and with other municipal entities. It sounds to me as if your concern is that this may or may not be there.

And I recall also, Auditor General, yesterday you said that one of the things the government could have done was provide a little assistance as an incentive, given the fiscal pressures that municipalities are under.

[Sheila Fraser]

Absolutely. This is an area where we would have expected much more to be done. We mention that the 2004 policy called for this. Certainly I think this issue became very real for people when we saw what happened on September 11, when there was that lack of ability to communicate between the first responders. This is an area where I think it's reasonable to expect there would have been more work done on common standards that would have been agreed to with the provinces and the municipalities. Given the fact that the department didn't spend a third of its budget in the last two years, there certainly were resources that could have been made available to encourage this project and move it along.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes. Again from provincial experience, I know the pressures that provincial capitals are under to try to come to grips with this, and the fact that they're not connected at this late date is very, very disconcerting.

In the moments I have left, I'd like to return to chapter 6 and the first nations environmental protection—their lands, rather. Paragraph 6.92 says, “The First Nations Land Management Act (FNLMA) is intended to enable First Nations to make timely business and administrative decisions...”. So as I understand this, the intent is to download responsibility from the feds to the first nations to make their own decisions, but there isn't the opportunity to get the training they need in order to assume those very responsibilities and make the right decisions.

Number one, is that correct? Second, could you expand on that a little? What exactly should be happening that isn't?

[Sheila Fraser]

That is essentially correct. There are four programs in place that would allow first nations to assume more responsibility over their management of land and resources. So they would not be totally subject to the Indian Act, as is currently the case. Under the Indian Act, it is the federal government that in fact manages land resources, so it would have to approve leases and even basic things that would be necessary for economic development. So for those first nations that are judged able to assume that responsibility, they would apply to go under one of these programs and would receive the necessary training. But as we mentioned in the report, access to these programs is limited and the department has indicated that it is, again, a question of funding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Weston, you have six minutes.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Fraser, you made some complimentary remarks about the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, but despite Jason Kenney's solid Jesuit training, he didn't get a gold star. So I would like to explore how we can get there.

Certainly this has to be one of the most bracing, exciting, and complex elements of Canadian nation-building: immigration, the processing of applicants from around the world. There's no limit on the number of people who can apply on any given day, whether as foreign skilled workers or temporary foreign workers or in any of the other categories. It's an exercise of gargantuan proportions. The numbers you reflected in your report are absolutely massive.

One of those numbers is a good number. Even though you said there are some 600,000 applications in the system, that represents a 30% decline from where we were as of a couple of years ago, as I understand it.

[Sheila Fraser]

If I could clarify, as I mentioned, the process or the number of job categories was modified and decreased from some 300 to 38. That was announced in late 2008, effective February 2008. So there was a cut-off point of February 2008. At that point, the backlog was around 600,000. That inventory, pre-February 2008, has been reduced by about 30%, but it is because there was no processing of applications received from February to December 2008, which means there was another backlog created under the new system. So in fact the actual reduction, if you take the whole program, the two together, is about 5%, not 30%.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

All right. I understood the skilled worker backlog had fallen by 30%, but given what you're saying--

[Sheila Fraser]

Those numbers are quoted, but the quotations have to be read very carefully, because we're talking about the inventory as at February 2008. I think the department has just released a report where they themselves report that the overall backlog was reduced by about 5%.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Well, we all have stories in this room, I'm sure, relating to immigration. I lived overseas as an international lawyer and I saw people longing to come to our shores and who were frustrated by the complicated nature of the process. It has been simplified to some extent by reducing the number of categories. Based on the tenor of your recommendations, it seems that we're moving in the right direction in terms of reducing backlogs by saying to the world that there are now only 38 categories instead of 351. Isn't that a good sign of leadership from an accountability perspective, from a perspective of managing people's expectations?

[Sheila Fraser]

As we mentioned in the report, there has to be an assessment done as to whether that reduction is having the desired effect. It is still very early to assess that, but what we can see in the first few months of this is that the number of applications has not dropped significantly and that there are not a lot of refusals because they don't meet one of those 38 categories.

The department has indicated that they want to do the processing of these applications under this new program in six to twelve months, so it will be important for them to continue to track the processing time, the number of applications being made, and whether they are able to meet that, and if not, obviously to take other measures to try to address the issue.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Okay. So there is some engagement, and the department is listening.

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Let's move to foreign credentials. It has always been one of the most contentious things. People rue the fact that sometimes they come to our great country and then can't use their credentials.

In paragraph 2.135 of your report, you say, “Preliminary findings indicate that the program is consistent with federal priorities and has contributed to a greater understanding and awareness of foreign credential recognition issues among stakeholders.” That's the new program for foreign credential recognition that was brought in under this Conservative government. It sounds like it's preliminary, too early to make a strong assessment, but it's going in the right direction.

[Sheila Fraser]

Absolutely. This is a positive finding in the report.

Obviously the recognition of credentials is largely a provincial jurisdiction, so the role of the federal government is relatively limited. But they have put together this initiative and created a new organization to provide better information to foreign applicants about the requirements within Canada and also to work with the provinces to try to increase the recognition of foreign credentials.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I'm sure I speak on behalf of all my fellow members of Parliament when I say that one of the biggest things we deal with is people trying to get their work permits or their LMOs. You comment quite extensively on this. In paragraph 2.98, you said that HRSDC, which is responsible for the labour market opinions, “has implemented a number of initiatives aimed at improving the administration of labour market opinions”.

This I find really interesting. You talk about a quality assurance framework being necessary. You said there were some improvements--electronic mailboxes set up--and that the department is listening to its shortfalls, which it concedes. There was nothing in that report that suggested you had actually talked to the customers, that is, the employers who are trying to bring people in. I know there has been consternation among some employers about the whole LMO process.

[Sheila Fraser]

Chair, I would say that in the course of the audit the team did speak to employers, and I can ask Mr. Flageole to expand upon that.

[Richard Flageole]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, we actually met with employers from Alberta, B.C., and Ontario. We don't really report on this, but we really listened to what they had to say, so that was part of the audit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Weston.

Ms. Crombie, for six minutes.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I'll pick up on chapter 2 and I'll finish off some of Mr. Weston's thoughts.

If we were limiting the criteria of who can apply, since we've reduced the number of eligible categories from 351 to 38, will we be meeting our future labour market needs, in your opinion?