Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 12th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

As I said, the committee is going to deal with a couple of motions.

As I indicated, there are two motions to come before the committee. The first motion I will deal with is the report of the steering committee, which was held earlier in the week. Those minutes have been circulated. Basically they set out the paragraphs, the future agenda items, of the business of the committee. I should also point out that in the second part, the steering committee is recommending that five previous reports.... These are five reports for which the work was done, hearings were held, the committee issued a report, and on behalf of the committee I tabled the report in Parliament. But before the government responded to the report within the required 120 days, the government was prorogued, or suspended, because of the elections. What we're going to do is retable them just for the sole purpose of getting the response from the government.

You have the minutes in front of you, and the chair would entertain a motion for their acceptance.

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I so move.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Is there any further discussion?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, I do. This is on the steering committee report.

On number one, I recall that at the steering committee we weren't choosing the chapter really. And maybe, Dave, my assistant, can help me with the chapter number—I forgot what number that was—the one on plants. We had quite the discussion in public and there was quite a little bit of discussion even at the steering committee. We were going to put it as a notation, and we just didn't want it to get away from us, but I'm not seeing it here--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No, Mr. Christopherson, I think that was at chapter 4, but I believe the steering committee agreed that it would go back on the agenda for the next meeting of the steering committee. It will be on the agenda.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, Chair, but what purpose does that serve?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Well, we would discuss whether or not we do it. On the next agenda of the steering committee, that particular chapter would be there, as to whether we decide to recommend to the committee that it be included as part of this list. We won't forget about it. We're going to continue the discussion.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. I hear you. If other colleagues on the steering committee are fine with it, then I'm not going to make a cause célèbre out of it, but it does make it a little more difficult to consider whether we want to do it when we've already laden ourselves with six out of eight chapters. That leaves only one chapter in the whole thing that we aren't doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No, that's not correct either. What we've done is taken four of the eight, but we've reached back and taken two from the May 2008 report of the Auditor General.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Oh, right. Are you sure?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'm positive.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

So it's May 2008, chapter 5; May 2008, chapter 7; December 2008, chapter 1; and December 2008, chapter 2. Okay, I'm with you. I hear you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Now, Mr. Christopherson--

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But I still think we should make the decision now. I don't know whether we need to chew on it at the steering committee. We're going to do it or not. I'll put it on the floor to deal with the matter. I'll move an amendment that we include chapter 4.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

What's the title of chapter 4, Madam Clerk?

It's chapter 4 dealing with the CFIA, is it?

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Yes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, with food safety.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Let's deal with the amendment. Is there any further discussion on the amendment?

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

The steering committee is there for just that purpose. We all had our issues that we wished to bring forward, and we didn't want to get into the trade-off situations. We settled on one.

Mr. Christopherson and Madam Ratansi brought up the concern about this other chapter, chapter 4. At that particular time, we said that's fine, we have our issues now, but if we need to go back and revisit and you wish to bring that up at the next steering committee rather than go back and forth and get into the “negotiation” per se, let's just go that way. That was the full understanding I had with Mr. Murphy at that time and with my colleagues. I didn't realize we were coming back here to get into a trade-off again.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Again, Mr. Chair, I'm not looking to open up any trading.

I accept everything you said. That's exactly the way it happened. I was unclear at the end of that meeting. We were getting close to one o'clock and all I heard was.... I just wanted to make sure the issue was alive, because that was the most I was going to get out of that meeting, and I got that. All I'm doing now, rather than delaying, is just trying to short-circuit, so I'm not backing out on the sort of deal, if you will, the trade-off, as we said. I'm just trying to short-circuit the process. We've got so much work and I'm saying, look, let's make a decision right now, so I'm moving the amendment.

But I stand by the four, and you have a valid point in raising that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay. I want to hear from Ms. Ratansi. Then I'll put the amendment to a vote.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I just want a clarification. This is the minutes of the meeting of the steering committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Correct.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

So if it is the minutes of the meeting of the steering committee, then Mr. Christopherson has a valid point, because in the minutes we did say chapter 4. Therefore, it can be recorded that chapter 4, which is the food safety or plant safety chapter, would be considered for the next steering committee. That would reflect accurately our discussions. That's number one.

Number two, I guess the clerk was given the responsibility of telling us which....

Okay? The clerk was going to tell us the ranking of these chapters: 1, 3, 7, and 2. I understand, then, that what the clerk has put down is the ranking according to different parties, right? True?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Dealing with your first point, the point was made at the end of the meeting, as Mr. Christopherson indicated, that the matter, chapter 4, would come back on the agenda for the next steering committee. That would be in the minutes of the in camera hearing, so it is on the agenda. I don't think it needs to be in the minutes.

On the listing, yes, we basically took them in that order, but we have to appreciate that because of scheduling the clerk is given a certain amount of flexibility, such as whether accounting officers are available on this date. We can't set ourselves in stone, because the clerk may call one department--