Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Michelle d'Auray]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We did not necessarily create performance indicators that are directly linked to the Public Service Modernization Act or to all the elements of the legislation. However, we have performance indicators for a wide range of elements, so that we can have a good idea of how the public service is performing. For instance, we have performance indicators for staffing, official languages, job equity, comprehensive planning, employee performance management and training. We compile performance indicators on an annual basis, so that we have to deal with components of the Public Service Modernization Act. We acknowledge that we did not necessarily put all that together so that we could ask ourselves whether we had really met all the objectives of the legislation. With regard to public service management, there are indicators that allow us to have a look at performance in the field of human resources management.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Ms. d'Auray, you seemed to hesitate slightly when you spoke of a certain range. You limited it. The indicators that you mentioned seemed to be big, but they have shrunk.

With regard to modernization, you discussed, among other things, training in official languages. There is nothing really new. You mention modernization and integrating indicators for official languages, but that should already be fundamental to the system, and not something new. It is not as if there were some elements that showed us clearly that you have implemented new indicators that would allow us to modernize the public service and improve the performance of the public service.

[Michelle d'Auray]

New indicators, if I may say so, have been created. They allow us to find out, for instance, if all the employees have a training plan. This element had not been measured previously and now it is being measured. Do the departments have governance structures for human resources management? Is their planning comprehensive? These elements had not been measured previously; today, we are measuring them.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Ms. d'Auray, would it be possible to provide the committee with the previous indicators and the new indicators? This could perhaps allow us to see what kind of progress you have made.

Let me come back to the comment made by the Auditor General, when she said that the secretariat had not fully developed a set of performance indicators. I would like to receive a copy of this list.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Mr. Chair, I will be pleased to do so.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Let me come back to the question of the annual report. Private companies and many other organizations are required to respect certain rules. When March 31, 2008 arrives and we are expecting to receive documents, we do not expect to get them two years later. We ask private companies, when the time comes to declare their income, or non-profit organizations, when the time comes to show their financial statements, to respect the deadlines. Earlier, you seemed to be saying that it is perhaps less of a priority given the fact that it is not mentioned in the legislation. However, with regard to Parliament, there must be a certain accountability. In fact, you have obligations due to your accountability before Parliament.

Now let me come to my question, which is fairly easy. Do you find such long delays acceptable within the context of accountability before Parliament, before the members that the public elected as their representatives; do you find that acceptable?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you, Mr. D'Amours.

Ms. d'Auray, you still have a few seconds to answer this question. Otherwise, we will repeat it during the next round, because we have already lost much time.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Mr. Chair, we recognize that these delays are unacceptable. As I said, we have taken measures to solve the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you, Madam. Perhaps we will come back again to this subject in a few minutes from now.

Mr. Young, go ahead, please.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you. My questions are for Madame Cartwright.

I understand that the original purpose of the Public Service Modernization Act was to change the way the public service hires, manages, and supports its employees, but what I'm trying to understand better is why the changes were needed. In other words, was it to reduce turnover? Was it to get better results from employees and increase productivity? Was it to hire more people who are innovators, who would bring innovation to the public service? Was it to save money?

[Susan Cartwright]

The motivation for introducing the Public Service Modernization Act, which was the single largest change to HR-related legislation in almost 40 years for the public service, was really to try to deal with the kinds of HR management practices that had built up over time, which had become very inflexible.

So it is indeed partly about saving money, but I would say that our first focus in introducing the legislation was to give responsibility and authority to deputy heads and managers to actually exercise flexibility in how they hired so they could acquire the best people for the job in a timely fashion, bearing in mind both the current and future business needs of their organizations, to enable them to serve Canadians better.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Of the total number of positions in the civil service, what percentage are staffed by visible minorities compared to the numbers for Canada's population at large?

The question is for Madam Cartwright. Thank you.

[Susan Cartwright]

I don't have that figure with me today, but I'd be very pleased to furnish it to the committee.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Is that one of the goals of the changes? Is that one of the goals that were originally conceived?

[Susan Cartwright]

We have a piece of legislation, the Employment Equity Act, the sole focus of which is to ensure that the public service is representative of the Canadian population. You'll see reference to the same objective in the preamble to the Public Service Employment Act, which was created to ensure that the public service is diverse.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

I've been advised--and I don't have the exact figures in front of me, either--and I think it's around 9%, if I'm not mistaken, compared to the number for the Canadian population at large, which is around 19%. Are you satisfied with that? Does that meet your goals?

[Susan Cartwright]

As I said at the beginning, we are very much in the early stages of analyzing the information, and I think it's premature for us to speak to conclusions at this stage.

The other thing is, I think it's important to consider how that visible minority population is broken out, because my understanding, from a preliminary look at the information that's available, is that we have been more successful with some populations than with others.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Towards the end of the report you presented this morning, you said that the results of the review will serve as a useful point of reference as we work to build and maintain a 21st century workplace. But this is after five years. You're doing a review of legislation. I would think that at that point you would want to have a plan, a detailed plan, a structure with principles in it for moving forward, as opposed to just a point of reference.

[Susan Cartwright]

I think the review I'm undertaking needs to be seen in a broader context of people management. Our review is restricted to those two pieces of legislation, but there are some major elements of the people management framework that lie outside that, and irrespective of the review work that we are undertaking, the chief human resources officer, the Public Service Commission, and a variety of other key actors in the system are looking at public service human resource management more broadly for now and the future. So our review will contribute--I hope significantly--to that ongoing work to ensure that we are a high-performing public service.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Do you have any...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you very much.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Are we out of time?

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

You'll get another round.

I had Madame Guay, but I gather that Madame Faille is taking her place.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I'll continue along the same lines as my colleague, Mr. D'Amours, who asked a question regarding time periods, reports, and your follow-up. The Auditor General stated earlier that she wanted to see the results of quantitative studies.

Ms. Cartwright, you said that you had considered this issue. However, I did ask you a question about business cases. What data do you use in the studies that lead up to the annual reports that you table? I find it hard to believe that you are able to provide us with reports in the expected time period, given the data that departments have in order to follow up on their human resources programs. You stated that you took the necessary measures in order to give us these reports in time.

Could you expand on the means that you used in order to ensure that these data were relevant and justified?

For my part, I have not seen anything that resembled a business case analysis. I would like to know what quantitative data we can expect to see in the next annual report that you will table.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, we do not use business case analyses, that is we do not undertake any cost-benefit analyses in order to determine whether we are progressing in the area of human resources. For example, the purpose of one of our questions is to find out if all staff within a department have a training plan. The quantitative response is yes or no: either they have one or they do not.

The question as to whether or not the departments have integrated a human resources plan into their business plan is a much more qualitative measure. This allows them to plan their staffing and reduce staffing time. This is a qualitative measure, in terms of the nature of the plan and the quality of the integration and planning, but it is a quantitative measure in terms of the time it takes to fill a position.