Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was helicopters.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence
No. We purchased those Chinooks from the American army. We may sell them to another country.
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence
We don't have a buyer yet, but we will sell the five Chinook Ds that we have remaining.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence
No, they work well.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence
We have under contract 15 improved Chinook Fs, which we will take delivery of in 2013, and that will be the long-term core of our Chinook fleet. We have no requirement for any Chinooks above the 15.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
When you make that kind of decision, do you undertake a cost-benefit analysis? Do you work with Public Works and Government Services Canada on, among other things, long-term acquisitions?
If I'm not mistaken, you purchased the Chinooks in 2008, you are using them currently and next year you're going to sell them.
11:25 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
If I could, Mr. Chairman, I don't know exactly the ages of the Chinook Ds. Dan Ross would know it.
Members will remember that we were advised by the independent panel on the future of the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan, led by John Manley and others, to make sure that we had a heavy-lift capability in theatre if we were going to continue in the mission beyond 2009. That was when we worked out an arrangement with the Americans to buy six existing Chinook Ds for the purpose of the mission. We never intended to bring them back, after the Chinook Fs were envisaged as part of the fleet.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Could you provide to the committee, in writing, the decision or the document that justifies that kind of acquisition of aircraft, whether it be through rental or through a purchase, and that also states that you will be selling them after two years of use? That's very strange.
11:25 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
What kind of a document would the committee like, Mr. Chairman?
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
What type of documents do you currently have that would justify that kind of decision? Is it a cost-benefit analysis? A document outlining the grounds for that purchase, a contract, a decision?
At some point in time there must be a committee somewhere that makes a decision. Who makes the decision to proceed in that way to purchase equipment?
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
11:30 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
There should be a Treasury Board document, right?
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Secretary, International Affairs, Security and Justice, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, it came to Treasury Board.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Thank you.
My next question deals with a news item which was made public on November 22, 2010, concerning helicopters. In fact, it was the Mi-17s. It was the first time I heard about them.
Can you explain to us how this equipment was bought? Why buy Mi-17s when you can buy American helicopters at a lesser cost? Can you justify your decision? What is the mission of these helicopters? Can you also tell us how much it costs to lease them?
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Mi-17 helicopters you are referring to are not purchased; they are leased, uniquely for the ongoing mission in Afghanistan. They respond to a specific operational need identified by the commanders on the ground that could not be met by our large transport helicopters, the Chinook, or by the small escort helicopters, the Griffon.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Why is the lease contract, as opposed to other contracts, not on the MERX's Web site?
11:30 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Mr. Chairman, I think we were asked to come to talk about chapter 6 of the Auditor General's report. We weren't prepared to come to talk about the Mi-17s. I think the minister has answered whatever questions might be put to him in the House on the Mi-17.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
The reason why I am asking these questions is because we are discussing helicopters. When we conducted the study with analysts from the Library of Parliament, with regard to expenditures made by the air force, the helicopters were nowhere to be found. They were not included in your real asset plan, nor were they included in information on your Web site under your plans and priorities.
You are now appearing before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. I want to know whether the acquisition practices relating to the purchase of aircraft do not apply to the Mi-17s. How is it that there are two different sets of rules? Is what's good for the goose not good for the gander?
11:30 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
The Mi-17s were leased in full accordance with Treasury Board rules and policy, Mr. Chairman, and the Auditor General would ultimately be welcome to audit that particular acquisition.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
I have a question for the Auditor General. When you did your audit into the helicopter issue, were you told that there were other types of expenditures, including those for the Mi-17s?
11:30 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Perhaps we knew about them, but we did not look at that acquisition at all.