Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 9th, 2010

[The Chair (Hon. Joseph Volpe (Eglinton—Lawrence, Lib.)), Liberal, Joe Volpe]

We'll begin. Thank you very much.

I remind everybody that we are in public for the business part.

You have before you the fifteenth report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Our subcommittee met on Wednesday, December 8--yesterday--to consider the business of the committee and agreed to make the following recommendations:

1. That, in relation to the motion adopted by the Committee on Thursday, November 25, 2010, the Committee begin its study of Chapter 5, “Regulating and Supervising Large Banks,” of the Fall 2010 Report of the Auditor General of Canada in early 2011.

A calendar was provided for everyone's consumption.

2. That, in relation to the motion adopted by the Committee on Thursday, November 25, 2010, the Committee begin its study of the “Public Accounts of Canada 2010” in early 2011.

3. That, in relation to the motions adopted by the Committee on Thursday, March 25, 2010 and Thursday, April 15, 2010, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be directed to undertake a preliminary assessment of the status of recommendations made by the Committee in the second session, 40th Parliament.

4. That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the Committee consider its approach to a possible study of the special report of the Auditor General of Canada concerning the Public Service Integrity Commissioner of Canada, to be tabled in the House on December 9, 2010.

I just want to add something onto that. With number four, we had some preliminary discussions on it. Obviously some of you....

I don't know whether Mr. Young has a copy yet. The clerk was going to try to make a copy of the report available to everybody who didn't already have one.

All right. I think you all have a copy now.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

No, I don't have it. Are you talking about the subcommittee report?

Has there been a change?

Also, there is nothing specific on the agenda for our two meetings next week, on Tuesday and Thursday. Are you suggesting that we continue to work on the reports?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Ms. Faille, you're right. There is nothing specific because we had already decided to leave Tuesday, at least, pretty much open. There was some doubt about Thursday, December 16th, because it is possible the House will not be sitting then. The Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure felt that Tuesday could be set aside for a follow-up study on the Auditor General's presentation on the Public Service Integrity Commissioner.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

All right, but if we decide to meet to discuss a particular issue, could we choose a topic from the list in the Auditor General's reports?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

As I recall, in our discussions, we had left open the possibility of undertaking another study. Chapters 2 and 3 were suggested. We also considered the idea of doing another study on the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

In light of the fairly scathing report that was tabled today, I was wondering whether it would be possible to meet with the previous Commissioner and the Auditor General at next Tuesday's meeting. I'd like to know how feasible it would be to do what I am suggesting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

If committee members agree, we could immediately contact the Auditor General and the acting head of the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, and even the clerk… What is he called in French?

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Le greffier du Conseil privé.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

If we want to do this and it's possible, we could also invite other witnesses.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

On the other hand, bringing these people in next Tuesday could be difficult. There are a number of people involved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

In fact, when I said that the committee had thought it might be a good idea to keep Tuesday's meeting open, in a way, it was with the idea of possibly bringing in witnesses. The idea was that, if that proved impossible, we could simply continue the studies that are already underway.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

That's right. I understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

So, there isn't any real logistical problem.

Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The 15th report deals with issues we may want to study. However, when we talked about the helicopter acquisition issues several weeks ago, we left ourselves some flexibility. We discussed this two days ago. As far as Thursday is concerned, I know it could be problematic, or could become problematic. But that doesn't seem to be the case for Tuesday.

Would it be possible to bring back the people who were here on Tuesday? We asked a lot of questions, but I don't think we received all the answers. In order to do that, we would have to ask the witnesses to come back and ask them more questions. This time, they should understand that this is a serious matter and provide us with specific and accurate answers to our questions. We did say that in future, we could add meetings, if need be, in the context of our studies. And that is one that is currently underway.

So, I'm wondering if we could ask the witnesses who appeared on December 7 to come back next Tuesday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. D'Amours, I think that's a question you're asking essentially of the entire committee.

Let me go on to Mr. Saxton before we address that.

Mr. Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I understand your desire to discuss the report of the Auditor General on the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner. My only concern is that we haven't really had enough time to read through this, and I think a meeting on Tuesday is a bit too ambitious. I would propose that it be done after Tuesday to give us more time to analyze the report and go through it.

I would propose that we don't do it on Tuesday but do it at a later date--as soon as possible on the next date.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Saxton, are you saying that you're okay with recommendations one, two, and three, and you're reserving on number four? Is that what you're saying?

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

I'm discussing number four specifically right now. This is something that as a committee we've never discussed reviewing. We're doing it for the first time right now. I'm suggesting that Tuesday is too soon to review the AG's report on the integrity commissioner.

I would propose that we do it at the next earliest opportunity, but not on Tuesday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Are there any other comments?

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm open to the notion of holding off, because it is a short timeframe. However, in this case, I don't know that we need much more than the Auditor General, as we did this morning, when she gave us her in camera briefing.

I don't know how much organization there is to do. Either she's available or she's not--because who else would be there?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Go ahead, Madame Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Some members attended the in camera meeting this morning with the Auditor General. There were quite substantial discussions at that time. I think that if the Auditor General is available next Tuesday to participate in a working meeting with committee members, we could go through that exercise again and look more closely at the issues that were touched on this morning.

I would like to voice my support for Mr. D'Amours' request with respect to the defense acquisition. The fact is that we did not get answers to certain questions because we ran out of time. Considering the number of turns that were available, it was impossible to question the witnesses to any great extent. So, if Mr. D'Amours would like to table a motion, I am prepared to support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Madame Faille, I think you've put the chair in a position where he now has to go through each one of these things individually, because there are now three items on the table.

The first one is to either...deal with the report as submitted from the steering committee; the second one is to address Mr. Saxton's question; and the third one is to address Mr. D'Amours' question.

If you'll allow me, we can continue that discussion. Let me deal with them individually.

We have, as part of the report from the steering committee, items one, two, three, and four. Can I deal with each one of them individually first? Then we can get rid of the items one at a time.

Is everyone in agreement with recommendation one?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Seeing no dissent, we'll accept that.

Those in favour of number two?