Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 1st, 2011

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I certainly agree with Mr. Christopherson. We cannot have anyone wilfully ignoring the will of the committee. If they have any knowledge whatsoever of the fact that they are expected to be here, they cannot ignore that. So if it comes down to the final stroke of a summons being the necessary tool, I certainly would support that.

The concerns I have are over a couple of things. I'll just touch on this, Chair. I don't want to belabour this point right now.

A number of times statements, actually by the chair and others, were made discussing this issue with The Hill Times, with other people, and some of it has been in camera. It says he'll ask the committee whether or not to give him the authority to track down Ms. Ouimet and get her before the committee. So I'm concerned that we have to be careful here. Are we putting people on notice, and it's in camera, and then going out and doing things like this? I have to be a little cautious on that, but I don't want to belabour that point now, Chair.

Does anybody know if the individual is in the south for three months? I don't know. I have no idea. No one's home; no one's answering. People do leave for three months, particularly if they feel they don't want to be here for a while. I have no idea. I wouldn't even know where the individual lives. But if in the committee's judgment they feel the only way to get that person here is through a summons, as a government member, personally, I would absolutely support that, because they cannot deny the will of this committee.

I hope we have followed every last means by which to be able to contact them in a reasonable manner, because this is the ultimate. We go to this route very, very seldom. If this is the case that we do it, so be it, but I would just caution our committee to ensure that every means has been followed prior to this so we don't just go ahead and get ourselves into some kind of a precedent that's going to come back...either that, or leave a loophole for someone to walk through later on in this process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you, Mr. Kramp.

I can only assure you from the perspective of the chair at least, and working with our clerk and our table, we have been as precise as we could be, so nobody could say anything negative about the way the committee has proceeded.

I take your point that what we need to ascertain in fact whether the individual is here. Unfortunately, we are now left with the situation that the only way we can do that is to issue the summons and have the logistics officer of the House track her down.

In order to do that I asked the clerk, in anticipation of whether we would be in this position or not, to prepare the documentation so that it would be as precise and as objective as possible. On the basis of that, she has done something that's consistent with all the House rules, all the procedures, and has a form in both official languages that includes the name of the individual who will be summoned to appear and give evidence before the committee on matters relating to the study of the Auditor General of Canada's report on the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

We're going to have to give her a date. We can deal with that date. Obviously it's unrealistic to do it this Thursday, but I'm proposing February 8 because that's the next available date. As I said, we can deal with that once there is a response from the logistics officer. But a date has to be given. She'll be given the date, the day, the time, and the House of Commons committee room number--this room number, because we're scheduled to be here--and be told that it’s this building and to remain in attendance until duly discharged.

We're scheduled to be here for two hours. We collectively may wish to be here for a shorter or longer time, in which case she can leave at the appropriate time. All of that is repeated in French. It's then transferred onto an official type of document that I have to sign, and the logistics officer receives it and goes about determining where Madame Ouimet is and delivers the document.

Just to anticipate what might happen, if the logistics officer is unable to find her before February 8, he will then report to us and we'll have to make a determination. Okay?

So I don't know how someone could be more reasonable.

Mr. Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Chair, that sounds reasonable. My only question is about when you say he is going to report back to us. Our next meeting is on Thursday, the day after tomorrow, and then we don't meet again until February 8. In all likelihood, we still won't know by this Thursday. This is likely going to happen sometime after Thursday. How are you going to relay that message to the rest of the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Saxton, we have a scheduled steering committee meeting tomorrow. We have a pre-scheduled meeting for Thursday that is subject to whatever it is that we would do, but we have some reports that we would consider. By Thursday we might have an indication; I don't want to prejudge what will happen.

We will schedule the eighth because we need to be able to do that for the purposes of the bailiff and the logistics officer, so the eighth is going to be set aside in order to do that. We already have something scheduled for the tenth, which is the following Thursday, and we have something tentative for the fifteenth, which is the Tuesday following.

I think we're trying to work by doing this in a timely fashion, but in a considerate fashion as well.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Would it be reasonable, then, for you to advise the committee of the progress by Friday, say, so we know what's happening?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

We could do it on Thursday and see what is happening.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

That would be good, to do it for Thursday, if we have anything by Thursday. You may not have anything.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Saxton, you and I get along because I always keep you informed of everything.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

I think the verdict is still outstanding on that one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Shipley, on that topic...? Or can I just move ahead?

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

No, it's just a clarification. Did you say you left messages on the phone? I thought I heard you say you had left messages.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Yes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

So the message machine never gets full...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

I don't know.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

It's sort of an interesting scenario here. I agree that we have to find her. If the logistics don't find her--let's say the person has gone away for six months, wherever--what happens? What is at the end? Do we just wait and wait and wait? What actually follows?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

From my perspective, it's going to the logistics, the bailiff people. They have expertise in tracking people down and they'll be able to tell us.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

We'll make a decision then. The committee will make a decision if they have been unable to do it or if they have been able to do it and something else is at play. But I'd wait until later for that.

With respect to voice mail, people clear out their mailboxes, and it's not a problem. Sometimes they're not there, which is where I think you're headed. There are any number of possibilities.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Well, I don't know....

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Yes. There are any number of possibilities. All I can say is that we've left messages.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Yes. Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Okay?

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

I don't know whether there is a vote required on that. I got a sense that everybody is in agreement.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'd like to speak.