Public Accounts Committee on March 1st, 2011

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Colleagues, we'll call this session together. This of course is the 47th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today we'll be discussing and studying chapter 9, “Pension and Insurance Administration--Royal Canadian Mounted Police”.

Yes?

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Just before we get started, I'd like to raise a point of order.

The point of order is that we believe that the privilege of the committee and its members has been violated by the chair of this committee--not you, of course; the other chair. Since he is not here today, I will defer the point of order until Thursday, but I would like it to be on record that we have raised it at this occasion.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

On the record it is, but we're tabling, obviously, until Thursday.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Fine. Thank you very kindly.

We'll continue now. We're following up on the November 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada. It was the second report of the second session of the 39th Parliament.

Today we have with us, from the Department of Public Safety, the deputy minister, Mr. William Baker, and of course we have the Commissioner of Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Mr. William Elliott.

Thank you so kindly for coming in here today, gentlemen. We certainly appreciate your time, given the commitments that everyone has. I know the committee is looking forward to your opening comments, which I assume you have. Then of course we will follow with our round of questioning based obviously on information we have, and of course based on the input that you're about to provide now.

Perhaps we could then start with Mr. Baker, please.

[William V. Baker, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's my pleasure to be here today with Commissioner Elliott to speak to you on the government's response to the committee's 2007 report, which addressed problems in the administration of the RCMP's pension and insurance plans.

First, let me say that I appreciate the on-going work of this committee in contributing to RCMP modernization efforts. Your recommendations, along with other input, have helped guide the reforms to strengthen the RCMP.

As you will recall, in 2007 the government established the Task Force on Governance and Cultural Change in the RCMP. The task force was created in response to a number of concerns relating to the administration and management of the RCMP. In December of that year, the task force released its final comprehensive report, with 49 recommendations regarding RCMP governance, management, and accountability.

One of the recommendations was to create a council of external advisers to oversee the implementation of task force recommendations. Consistent with this recommendation, in March 2008, three years ago, the government established the RCMP Reform Implementation Council to provide expert advice on the modernization of the RCMP.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

One moment, please.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

The sound is not reaching the booth. As a result, we are not getting the interpretation.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

We will suspend just briefly. We have some problems with translation. Please, one moment.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Colleagues, I think we're all back in operation now.

Yes, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, in consideration of the fact that due to technical difficulties we've lost about 10 minutes of our meeting, perhaps we could extend our meeting for 10 minutes at the end to compensate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

We generally don't do that. However, if you're....

Pardon?

We'll just cut the rounds down, if you'd like, all the way through. We just haven't done this in the past, and--

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

If there's consent; if not, then we'll just proceed.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Okay.

Do we have consent?

[An hon. member]

No.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Chair, can we wait until the end to see if we need it?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, generally we always have time-plus left over after questioning. We're generally pretty quick with this. We watch the clock pretty well. There should be some extra time, so we shouldn't be caught.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

Mr. Baker, we certainly apologize for our technical difficulties. Please continue, if you would.

[William V. Baker]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will skip some of the very beginning--the welcomes--and go more into the substance of my opening remarks, just in the interest of time.

One of the recommendations was to create a council of external advisers to oversee the implementation of the task force recommendations. Consistent with this recommendation, three years ago the government established the RCMP Reform Implementation Council to provide expert advice on the modernization of the RCMP.

The council's mandate ended on December 19, 2010. In each of its five reports, this independent council provided a largely positive assessment of the RCMP's progress on its transformation agenda. In its last report, which was publicly released in January 2011, the council stated, and I quote, that “most of the specific problems identified...by the Task Force are being effectively addressed”.

This is a significant accomplishment given the breadth and number of Task Force recommendations.

I would also like to add that provinces and territories who contract RCMP police services have been actively engaged in the process of modernization and have expressed their support for RCMP reform efforts.

However, today I would like to focus my remarks on the RCMP modernization efforts that have been led by my department, Public Safety Canada, in the areas of external oversight and contract policing.

Commissioner Elliott will speak to the transformation agenda that he has been actively pursuing within the force, including his efforts to strengthen RCMP management.

To begin, allow me to address the issue of external oversight. After extensive consultations with partners and stakeholders, including provinces and territories who contract RCMP police services, Public Safety Canada developed a legislative proposal to address the concerns raised by many groups, including those of this committee in its 2007 report.

I'm pleased to report that Public Safety Canada's work on external oversight resulted in the 2010 budget announcement of $8 million over two years for a new civilian independent review and complaints commission for the RCMP.

It also led to the introduction of Bill C-38, Ensuring the Effective Review of RCMP Civilian Complaints Act, last June. This bill proposes the creation of a new commission for public complaints, which would replace the existing review body, the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP.

Under Bill C-38, the new RCMP review and complaints commission would have significantly enhanced investigative powers, including the power to compel testimony and evidence. In addition, the bill provides the new commission with broad access to information needed to fulfill its mandate, including expressly providing the commission with access to privileged information where it is relevant and necessary.

To my knowledge, this sets a new precedent for review bodies in Canada.

Bill C-38 also streamlines the complaints process, and provides the new Commission with other authorities, such as the power to share information and conduct joint reviews with others, including provincial police review bodies.

Bill C-38 goes beyond strengthening the RCMP public complaints regime. The bill also establishes a mechanism to improve the transparency and accountability of serious incident investigations involving RCMP members. It substantively addresses the issue of who is policing the police. This includes the requirement of referring such investigations, wherever possible, to other investigative bodies, such as Alberta's special investigative response teams, and appointing civilian independent observers to assess the impartiality in cases where the investigation is undertaken by any police force.

These requirements would build upon and formalize the RCMP policy on external investigations that was announced by the commissioner in February 2010. It is expected that this and other changes will contribute to strengthening the RCMP and ensuring continued public confidence in the RCMP.

Turning now to the issue of contract policing, my department has been actively negotiating the renewal of provincial, territorial and municipal Police Services Agreements, which are set to expire in March 2012.

The proposed agreements include mechanisms that will significantly improve accountability and modernize the relationship between the federal government and the contract jurisdictions. As you know, we have contracts in place with eight provinces, three territories, and about 200 municipalities.

One such mechanism is the creation of a new contract management committee to provide the provinces and territories with much greater opportunity to provide input on issues that impact the cost and quality of RCMP services in their jurisdictions. These negotiations are progressing well, and I hope we will have agreements in principle with the contract jurisdictions shortly.

Before closing, I'd like to comment on the one recommendation made by this committee in 2007 that has not yet been addressed. That is the recommendation to create a police accountability board, which we have come to call a “board of management”. While Commissioner Elliott may also wish to comment on this issue--and I'm sure he will--permit me to make a few observations.

As you may know, I worked with a board of management in my former role as Commissioner of the Canada Revenue Agency. The RCMP is, of course, a very different organization with a unique operating environment, and its governance framework must be considered with that in mind.

I recognize that there have been calls from the task force, the Reform Implementation Council, and many others to establish a board of management for the RCMP. Given the importance of this institution to the safety and security of Canadians, any major decision on RCMP governance can only be made after extremely careful consideration of the matter and meaningful consultations with stakeholders, including contract jurisdictions.

I'd like to underscore that given the breadth of issues on RCMP modernization that have been identified in a variety of reviews and reports, including this body's helpful 2007 report, we frankly needed to prioritize our efforts.

First, as a matter of priority, the RCMP addressed the many administrative and management issues that had been identified. The results of this initiative were recently highlighted in the RCMP September 2010 progress report entitled “Transformation of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police”.

Secondly, the government focused its efforts on strengthening external oversight of the RCMP, which of course resulted in Bill C-38, which I mentioned earlier.

In addition, Bill C-43, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Modernization Act, was introduced in Parliament in June 2010 by the President of the Treasury Board, with a view to modernizing the RCMP's labour relations regime.

Lastly, in terms of priorities, we have directed our efforts to contract policing negotiations, which include new relationships with contract jurisdictions.

We can now properly turn our attention to strengthening the internal oversight and considerations associated with a board of management and any other related governance changes.

Internal governance is an extraordinarily complex issue, and it is important that we take the time to get this right for the RCMP and for Canadians. The RCMP has been developing its views on this issue. We will soon be in a position to consider the work undertaken by the RCMP, and be in a position so that I can provide advice to the minister and the government.

I would note, of course, that any decision on governance is a machinery issue that ultimately remains the prerogative of the Prime Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd be happy to answer any questions after my colleague has spoken.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

Commissioner Elliott.

[Commissioner William Elliott, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to be here with my colleague, Deputy Minister Baker, and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to provide an update on the RCMP's transformation efforts.

Since the government provided its response to the committee's report of December 2007, I believe the committee has been briefed periodically on progress in addressing the committee's recommendations.

Following the committee's report and that of the Task Force on Governance and Cultural Change in the RCMP, both in December of 2007, the RCMP embarked on a comprehensive and ambitious transformation initiative.

Simply put, our objective has been to bring about positive change in the force in order to better serve Canadians and better support our employees.

I would like to highlight some of the changes we have made, including changes to improve transparency and accountability.

Let me begin by saying that I believe the RCMP is a stronger organization today than it was when issues surrounding its pension and insurance plans came to light. Much of the progress we have made is summarized, as Mr. Baker indicated, in our report entitled “Progress--Transformation of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police”. I believe the Minister of Public Safety provided copies to the committee last fall.

The progress outlined in that report is in support of our vision for change for the RCMP to be an adaptive, accountable, trusted organization of fully engaged employees demonstrating outstanding leadership and providing world-class police services.

I believe this vision supports many of the principles reflected in the recommendations of the committee. For example, we created the Office of Professional Integrity within the RCMP, and appointed retired Major General Joseph Hincke as our professional integrity officer. His role is to advance ethical and values-based decision-making throughout the organization; and to oversee discipline, honours, recognition, and the application of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.

The Office of Professional Integrity also supports our policy on external investigations or review adopted last year to provide further assurance that serious incidents involving employees of the RCMP will be thoroughly and independently investigated. We recognize that transparency and accountability are vital to the public support on which we rely in carrying out our mandate promoting the safety and security of Canadians.

The RCMP, and I as commissioner, are very supportive of other proposed enhancements to independent oversight and review of the RCMP, including proposed legislation to establish an independent review and complaints commission, which would build on the existing Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP.

The senior executive of the RCMP and I are also on record as supporting recommended governance changes for the RCMP, specifically that the RCMP become a separate agency supported by a board of management.

The senior executive of the RCMP and I are also on record as supporting recommended governance changes for the RCMP, specifically that the RCMP become a separate agency supported by a board.

As our transformation report highlights, we have made significant progress on a broad range of issues. We have improved our performance on access to information requests; strengthened our policies, training, and reporting requirements on the use of force, notably in relation to conducted energy weapons or tasers; and introduced a new policy on the responsibility to report, clarifying and strengthening reporting requirements relating to major police incidents.

Among the priorities we have been addressing are leadership, training and development, and significant improvements in investments have also been made in these critically important areas. We have also been successful in our efforts to obtain greater authority with respect to procurement and contracting, including pursuant to the investment planning initiative undertaken by Public Works and Government Services Canada.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer to significant changes to both our organizational structure and the makeup of the RCMP's senior management team. We have streamlined the senior executive committee and appointed uniquely qualified individuals to our senior management team. This includes a number of new commanding officers and other senior officials in our divisions--that is the provinces and territories--and at national headquarters. The senior management team is committed to working collaboratively to create a culture of continuous improvement and to accelerate the pace and scope of positive change within the RCMP.

Thank you again, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to appear before you today. I look forward to the committee's questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you, Commissioner Elliott.

We will now start our first round of questioning, and of course it will be seven minutes for the first round.

We will start first with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, please.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Kramp.

Commissioner Elliott, welcome.

Commissioner, over a year ago, assistant commissioner Keith Clark, who is in charge of the change management team within the RCMP, wrote a very critical report for the team about the implementation of reforms.

Have you read this report?

[Commr William Elliott]

I cannot recall specifically whether I read that report or not.