Public Accounts Committee on March 1st, 2011

[William V. Baker]

Mr. Chair, the first order of business is of course getting the material from the RCMP. I will need to take the time, and I'm not sure how long that time will be, and I cannot and am not going to box myself into a time corner, because we do other things in life as well, and I want to make sure.... This is a significant enough issue that it requires some of my personal attention on this. But I would need to take the right amount of time to have a look at it, ask the right questions with my colleagues, and then ultimately find some time to have a discussion with the minister on this.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

So no timeline? You're--

[William V. Baker]

I can't commit to a timeline because I can't commit the minister, I can't commit the central agencies, and I could not commit the Prime Minister--

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]....the first component was the RCMP, putting together this report three years after the fact, but there seems to be a fair amount of unanimous consent on this. Does the RCMP have any timeline associated now with what the deputy minister has recommended, what he needs to proceed with this?

[Commr William Elliott]

We have developed a comprehensive business case that we will be bringing forward in the very near future.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

You will be bringing it forward when...?

[Commr William Elliott]

In the very near future.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Okay.

Borys.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Baker, has the Prime Minister at this time given a clear directive to form a board of management? My understanding is that has not occurred.

[William V. Baker]

I'm not aware of any direction coming from the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister's Office, and I'm quite certain that the central agencies are aware of the work that is going on in the RCMP--

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[William V. Baker]

--and that ultimately they will see that.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Yet you've stated over and over that this is the Prime Minister's prerogative. It's the Prime Minister. The buck stops with the Prime Minister. It's his decision. If he had decided three years ago, based on all the recommendations of the task force, of the parliamentary committee, to implement this board of management--we've heard that it might take a couple of years to implement--do you think that if he had done this three years ago, we'd have one today, a board of management?

[William V. Baker]

I wouldn't speculate on the timeframe. I think it's easy to underestimate. I have direct experience with this at the Canada Revenue Agency. The time it takes to actually shape these things, come up with the detailed planning...you've got to admit that this is easier said than done. We have an RCMP with a commissioner in charge of the organization reporting to a minister. There is a relationship to the department. There's a Treasury Board. There are central agencies and so on.

When you insert another piece of governance, and that's exactly what this is, because no one else goes away.... If you insert another piece of governance, we have to think very thoroughly and clearly about the implications in terms of the authorities of the minister, the Treasury Board, and so on. That's part of the work that has to be done.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

Mr. Saxton, please.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, Mr. Elliott, you wanted to respond to Mrs. Mourani's earlier question. I'd like to give you the opportunity to do that now if you wish.

[Commr William Elliott]

I'm appreciative of that. I'd like to state for the record that I certainly believe in the importance of being respectful and encouraging frank discussion and debate. I believe we have been very successful in the RCMP, in the senior leadership of the RCMP, in doing just that.

On the occasions where that debate has not been perceived as respectful, I have expressed my apologies. I do not accept the characterization that the committee heard from Mr. Souccar and Mr. McDonell, and I would point out that the committee itself heard contradictory testimony from Deputy Commissioner Killam when he was here.

Thank you.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Elliott.

Earlier, I brought up the Marin committee report of 1976. One of the reasons I brought that up is to highlight that the recommendations of that report didn't actually take effect or get implemented until 1986 and 1988, 10 to 12 years after the report was published. I just wanted to ask, is it normal that it takes this length of time to make adjustments of this type?

[Commr William Elliott]

No, well, certainly I think that it does take time, and I must say that it's not as if we haven't done anything. We have been very busy in bringing about positive change in the force. There is certainly a long list of things that we have accomplished. Mr. Baker has referred a number of times to the legislative proposals that are before the House. We have worked with the Reform Implementation Council and we have worked with others in developing detailed proposals. But I agree wholeheartedly with the deputy minister: this is very complicated and it's a lot easier said than done.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you.

No further questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

We will now go to Mr. D'Amours, please.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Elliott, you referred to the near future. What does the near future mean for you? You stated that you could provide Mr. Baker with the information he needed in the near future.

[Commr William Elliott]

I think, Mr. Chair, that there are some issues with respect to how it is things work. Part of--

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Elliott…

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Excuse me. Let him answer first, and then you can have a--