Public Accounts Committee on March 1st, 2011

[William V. Baker]

Really, in terms of when the committee would be aware, I can't speculate, Mr. Chair. I can tell you that once we receive the material from the commissioner--and this would not be a memorandum, this would be a significant body of work I expect--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I understand that.

[William V. Baker]

--we will need to take the time to go through that. There will probably be some questioning back to the RCMP to get better information so that we have as full a package...in my experience, that type of exercise would probably take more than a couple of months.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's fair. At least it has a kind of frame that we can put around it now.

There have been implications in some of the questions asked here...potential interference or foot-dragging and a number of things like that. Has there been any political interference of any kind? In fairness, to allow you the opportunity to disclaim it, because that's kind of been inferred in some of the questions here, at any time has anyone put up roadblocks or interfered in any fashion?

[Commr William Elliott]

My answer to that question is no.

[William V. Baker]

I would have the exact same response, Mr. Chair.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

So what we're really saying here is that what we're going through at this point in time is almost due process, except for the changes that were happening within the RCMP and that have overloaded your office, from the sounds of things, to the point that it has delayed the progress on this.

So if we're going to be receiving something in three to six months, I think that's almost reasonable. I'm not so sure that the members of the committee would agree with me, but being the new kid on the block, that's the way I see it.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you for your courtesy, Mr. Marston.

We now will go to Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Marston, for your bit of logic that's come into the committee.

We hear comments that there's so much time and so little to do; in my mind, it reflects the lack of understanding of the magnitude of what we're trying to do to make a significant change in terms of the management and the oversight of such a significant force. It doesn't mean that there shouldn't be, but I can tell you that I would want to be one, as an elected person, as all of us are, one of 308, that when we have that oversight and when we make those changes, as they're phased in...not whether we do it or not, yes, but actually that the phase-in is properly phased and that all the things at the end of the day are good for Canadians, and more importantly, good for the RCMP and those officers who are responsible for our safety and the safety of this country in terms of their jurisdiction.

[An hon. member]

Hear, hear!

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I take offence, actually, to some of the aggressive comments about so little to do, understanding very much about it...so thank you so much for giving clarification in terms of the timelines.

I do want to go back. On the report that came out, in terms of the main report, it was 10 or 12 years to bring in. Does government move slowly? Yes, sometimes in terms of business, it does, but in this particular case, this is a huge change.

I just want to switch gears, if you don't mind. I'd like to go back to the task force a little bit. On July 16, 2007, the Minister of Public Safety brought in the creation of a five-member task force to provide advice in strengthening the accountability and the governance of the RCMP. The report on the governance and the culture change was released I think in December 2007. The release, then, has been out that would report a number of changes, hopefully that have maybe enhanced policing programs as well as service to the employees. It is two-pronged, from my understanding.

You've had the opportunity now to have some time on the evaluation of that. I wonder if you could speak to the strengths, the positive things that may have come out of that, and maybe even speak to any weaknesses or things that maybe need to continue to be addressed.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Reform Implementation Council reported in each of their five reports that significant progress has in fact been made in addressing the recommendations of the task force and other issues as well. In fact, there were 49 recommendations, and we have actioned 46 of those. One recommendation we did not accept and the other two were the governance recommendations we've been talking about this afternoon.

As I said, there's a wide variety of progress. The best sort of picture of that progress is the transformation report that I referred to in my opening remarks and that has been made available to the committee. We're a much stronger organization than we were, but we have lots and lots of things still on our to-do list.

I think the proposals that are already before the House with respect to strengthening oversight and review are very important. I would like to see action on the governance proposals. That will require us to develop a whole suite of new policies that can be tailor-made to the realities of policing and the realities of the RCMP, as opposed to the RCMP being bound by policies written for the whole federal public sector.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

Now we'll go for one minute and one minute, and then we'll close off.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

It has been made clear that it's the Prime Minister's responsibility to act on this recommendation of board of management accountability. The Reform Implementation Council, which he appointed, stated that it was their first, primary, and most important thing that they'd like to highlight. They stated, “Indeed, the difficulties encountered by the senior leadership of the RCMP in recent months make us all the more convinced of the need for such a mechanism—an independent body that works in good faith to push, prod and challenge the Force constructively...”.

It's almost a cry for help, as diplomatically as they could word it. We've seen over the last few months the terrible cost to the RCMP in the upper echelons—good men and women in the RCMP paid a terrible cost—because this has not been acted on. We know clearly from everything you've stated that it's the Prime Minister's role to make this decision. The decision hasn't happened. The buck stops with him.

Let me just make a final point on why this is so important. In a democracy, it's critical that there not be political interference in our federal police force, or vice versa, and we saw during the last election campaign what happened when the commissioner--

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you're out of order. We will not accept allegations at this particular point. If you have a closing comment, please make it.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It's critically important that there be a board of management in place so that never again do we see such an abuse of police powers as we saw during the last election.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dreeshen, please.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I actually would like to comment on what Mr. Marston said.

I do appreciate your demeanour. What we've heard here today is not what you would typically hear in public accounts: pointed but respectful discussion.

I would really like to thank you gentlemen for coming here today. Really, when we look at some of the different types of recommendations and look at what was presented, we know you've said that everything that came from the Auditor General's report has been addressed. There are a few issues of concern here. I really would just like to compliment you on what you have done.

I wanted to talk to you about the RCMP Reform Implementation Council and the expert advice. Perhaps you could just close on some of the things you've heard in that area.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Certainly we've worked very closely with the Reform Implementation Council, and actually, our positive dealings with the Reform Implementation Council are part of what has led me to believe that the RCMP would benefit from the advice of a board of management.

I spoke as recently as today with the former head of the Reform Implementation Council, and just with respect to an earlier comment, I don't believe that his position is that...the premise of the honourable member's question, or the assertion, is well founded.... He believes, as I do, that where problems arise, they would be resolved more expeditiously if we had a board of management. I reject categorically a number of the assertions made by the honourable member.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

In closing here, let me just say to our guests that obviously we all recognize that public safety really is the cornerstone, the very foundation of a nation. When we look around the world, we can lament maybe some of our misgivings or maybe inadequacies that people may perceive we have. But collectively, when we view the world, certainly globally, and do an honest comparison, quite frankly, I think we're honoured and privileged and pleased to live in a such a society where public safety plays such an important role that is respected by so many people.

Certainly on behalf of the committee, we thank you for coming here today on behalf of your respective authorities: Mr. Commissioner, on behalf of the RCMP, and Mr. Baker, certainly on behalf of Public Safety. Thank you very much for coming here today and giving us some insight as to the dilemmas we face and the response to the Auditor General's comments.

Have yourselves a good day, all.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

The meeting is adjourned.