Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 4th, 2012

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

With regard to current challenges, you talked to us about two major challenges facing the corporation right now.

In your opinion, how seriously should these two challenges be taken? What resources would be required to do a really effective job in these areas? What should the scope be of the action taken to deal with these challenges?

We know that you have a very relevant mission in this regard and that your resources are nevertheless limited. What sort of support do you expect to get from the government in order to deal with these challenges?

[Rubin Friedman]

You all know of course that currently there are federal budget cuts being made because of the financial situation. In such situations, it is true that every agency has to examine the way in which it spends public money and do the best it can to ensure that expenditures are made efficiently and effectively. That is what we do.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

My goal here is not to attack anyone. You have expertise in race relations in Canada. I want to know how serious the two challenges you mentioned a little earlier are. In your opinion, what resources should be made available to the board or other stakeholders to really change things as far as these current challenges are concerned?

[Rubin Friedman]

It is not as crucial as education or health for all Canadians, but it is an important issue that has to be dealt with. For me, what is very hard is that racism cannot be eliminated by the government. Every individual in Canada is responsible for eliminating their own racism and that of others. So it is not only a matter of resources. The population’s understanding of difference and each person’s attitude towards it is at issue here. We cannot change things solely by passing a law. It is much more practical than that.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

So we have to wait for everyone to become aware of the scope of the issue. Is this the only way of bringing about real change?

[Rubin Friedman]

Of course a legal framework is required to show that racism is not allowed. This is very important. However, it is through everyday practice that racism will be eliminated. Legislation will help to reduce it but will not eliminate it. When we talk about everyday practice, we are talking about people’s attitudes towards one another.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you.

That will conclude our hearing. Thank you all very much.

Mr. Friedman, I just want to point something out to you. I have been on this committee a long, long time. One might think it is easier for smaller organizations to follow all the rules and details, but it has been my experience that the lack of capacity to stay on top of those things....

This is the first examination of your organization by the Auditor General. In my mind it would have been, maybe not acceptable but certainly understandable if there were procedures that were very loose, shortcuts taken, and you made up your own way of doing things, that everything was nice and clubby, and it could work. Yet, the Auditor General went in there and I want to repeat what he said:

We are pleased to report that we found no significant deficiencies in the Foundation's systems and practices during the period covered by the examination.

In my opinion, given everything I have seen, that is something you should be very proud of. No one has ever gone in there and come out, having been analysed by Mr. Ferguson, received a report like that. That speaks an awful lot to the commitment of the people that are running that organization, the staff and volunteers.

The last thing I want to leave you with is a suggestion. If you can't find an individual that doesn't have a lot of economic experience, maybe you could tap into one of the local universities that could create an economic advisory board, or investment advisory board, made up of some of their leading students and some of the profs who could provide that on an ongoing basis regardless of who your individual person is. That's just one more suggestion. Again, sir, well done. Please keep up the good work.

Mr. Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Could I just get some clarification? The additional information that Mr. Byrne asked for, when does that start? Can the clerk repeat exactly what we've asked our witness to come up with?

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I believe it's since 2008. The Hansard will reflect 2008.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

My understanding is that the question is, “What recommendations correspondence did the council have with the government, the ministry, vis-à-vis appointments?” Is that correct? Is it since 2008?

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

My question, then Chair, is why stop at 2008? Why don't we go back even earlier to the previous government? Let's find more information.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Well, I think it was more a matter of Mr. Byrne trying to find a reasonable cut-off point. If he wanted to go just after this government took office, he would have made it 2006. But if you want to suggest that, I don't see anything political in it.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Okay, that's your opinion, but I think it would be helpful to know what the previous government did as well.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

How far back would you like to go, to Mackenzie King?

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Well—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

That may slow down when we're going to get this information.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

I think it would be helpful to have some more information.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Do you have a problem with that, Mr. Byrne?

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I never have a problem with information, but I think you have pointed out a couple of things. Perhaps the government really doesn't want to see this information ever tabled and would actually obfuscate it for that purpose. I think those watching this presentation through CPAC are seeing now that there's probably something the government wants to hide that's now become visible.

Also, there was a very clear policy reason why the question was asked. The principal operating officer and a member of the board of the directors of the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, who is appearing before us right now, seemed to indicate that there was a certain level of frustration around the appointments process. He did point out that it was the government that actually legislated a reduction in the number of board members from 20 to 12, and that there were issues.

I sort of pieced this together, Mr. Chair. Given the fact that the board has been reduced under law from 20 to 12 members, based on legislation that was passed relatively recently, we should probably find out whether or not there have been issues there since 2008. If the government wants to go back and expand the scope of this to 1993 and beyond to 1986, if the Canadian Race Relations Foundation has records going back that far—which I doubt that it does; it's 25 years—then they can provide it if they want. Well, actually, they can provide it if they have it, because they're bound by parliamentary authority to provide it if they do have it.

Maybe what we should do is just get a clear answer on 2008 to the present, unless, of course, the government has something to hide here, that nominations have been made—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Now you're getting into debate, and I don't have a motion yet, per se.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

The government won't want to do this again.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

All right, everybody, just calm down.

Mr. Friedman, what do you have to say about this?

[Rubin Friedman]

My main comment is that I don't know what information is available back that far. I just joined the board in April and I haven't looked at records that go back past last year yet.

My only answer is that I don't know what information exists, what's in the file, what's in the records. I feel fairly confident that with a more limited period I can speak directly to the people involved. If we go back further than that, I don't even know where the former members of the board are.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Yes.

Somebody help me—analysts, somebody—when was the change made in the law for the number of board members?

[Alex Smith, Committee Researcher]

In 2010.