Public Accounts Committee on April 23rd, 2013

[François Guimont]

I will undertake to discuss this with the OAG as you are suggesting, and it may take a bit of time, Mr. Chair.

I haven't seen the body of information that the OAG has, and the only caveat I would put, and I hope that the committee will understand that, is that should there be information in that information that is sensitive from our posture vis-a-vis cyber-threats, I would appreciate knowing that the committee will understand that.

As Madame Moffa has mentioned, certain things would be quite sensitive. So with that caveat, I will undertake to discuss it.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I'll tell you what. I'd appreciate it if you just held that caveat and just brought it, because that doesn't end the discussion. You well know what I'm talking about when I say we're getting into constitutional matters here of Parliament's unfettered right to ask for information. There are procedures that deal with this—what if it's considered a security issue?—and then we have some negotiation to the whole procedure in the rule book. But at the end of the day, you know, sir, that you can't just say to this committee, “You can't have it.” That is not the end of the story at all.

But, we want to stay away from those waters, those shark-infested waters. It would be so much better if we could come to a meeting of the minds.

So Mr. Byrne, and members of the committee, if we could try to be reasonable here, I think it's fair. The Auditor General has acknowledged that it was a lot of research, and even he didn't get it when he asked for that information, and I'm sensing—I'm not putting words in his mouth—some acquiescence on his part that he agreed with that argument.

Can we agree to ask the deputy minister to provide us with a report on the matters we've talked about? Then when we have it in hand, can we take a look at it and see whether that does it or not?

Go ahead, Mr. Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Chair, we have specifically organized a subcommittee to deal with these issues. I think we're meeting very soon. I think we should deal with it in that committee, which was your initiative and your recommendation. So let's deal with it in that subcommittee.

I do note that the bells are ringing, and they have been ringing for several minutes now. I would, as we normally do when that happens, move to adjourn and thank our witnesses.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

You know you can't move a motion on a point of order, but your point is taken.

Are we on a 30-minute bell, clerk?

We're on a 30-minute bell, so we have a little time.

I hear what you're saying. If that's where the majority ends up going, saying we'll stop this process of discussing with the witnesses and we're going to defer to a group that's not meeting. I was hoping we could come to an agreement here on some basic things. As I said, if there's an area where we can't agree, if we can get a process in place....

Otherwise, I don't know how we're going to reassemble all these people and be able to do this as quickly as possible. We're more than halfway through. If you can give me a little latitude, because we have agreement so far....

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

We could always write a letter as well—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Okay, but bear with me.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

—following up. We don't have to reassemble the witnesses.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Let's see if we can continue to get cooperation, and we can get the job done. That's why we're here, so if I may, let's try that.

When would that come to us, sir?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Yes.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Chair, I don't agree with that.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Nor do I.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Okay.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

It's after 5:30. As far as I'm concerned, the committee's—

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

There's a way to do it. That's not the right way to do it.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

What's the right way?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

The right way is to use some common sense in this committee. We have a difference of opinion. I want as much information as possible too. But as you, the chair, has said, there's a difference between “reasonable” and....

If we have a smoking gun here, it's one thing. We are going to create an onerous responsibility if we go down this road. It is going to be a momentous task to deliver the information. Is it information that is pertinent to the Auditor General's statement, to the investigation right now, to that outstanding problem? I think we need to have that discussion on that particular issue.

I have no problem going through some issues we all agree with. Let's just go ahead and do it.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Okay, but we're close.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

But with a difference of opinion....

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

But we're not at a difference of opinion, folks. I hear what you're saying.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Chair, lower the temperature.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Can you?

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Yes.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

All right, if you can lower the temperature, I'm listening.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. Chair, I think we should all recognize that Mr. Guimont is a trusted public servant, who not only has our confidence, but has earned our confidence. If he can do this, he will.

But also, I'll send a message not to Mr. Guimont but to the government. God forbid, should some provocative cyber-security threat occur, should the government ever stand up and claim they are spending x amount of money on cyber-security, when they know it's not true, because they can't tell a parliamentary committee how much they're spending on cyber-security. I would not want to walk in the government's shoes, that being the case.

So let's trust the public servant to come forward. If he can provide the information in a timely way, great. If he can't, because it's simply a task...the Auditor General has said he has records and files that may assist him. If there comes a point the department cannot provide this information, we can ask the Auditor General what information he flowed to them. But at the moment, a request has been made. Let's see if we can provide....