Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 9th, 2013

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Very good. Thank you, sir.

We go over to Mr. Simms, who has the floor again.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the RCMP.

In paragraph 5.65, it says, “We found that the RCMP has put in place an integrated risk management framework”, but in the next paragraph, 5.66, you found that, “the RCMP does not use performance information to guide resource allocation for its Integrated Border Enforcement Teams and Marine Security Enforcement Teams...”. These are regarding ports of entry, I gather, or just in general.

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

It would be between the ports of entry in general.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Before I get to you, I'll go to the Auditor General's office.

Can you give me an example of what you mean by “performance information to guide resource allocation”? Define “resource allocation” and what you looked at.

[Wendy Loschiuk]

What we were looking for was how it was integrated into determining where activity for illegal entry between ports of entry was matched to available resources to put towards apprehending individuals, where it was known that people were trying to cross the border.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

That puts a lot of emphasis on the intelligence, on expanding out and trying to find out where these people are coming from, and on risk assessment and that sort of thing. Do you feel they were lacking in where the resource allocation was going over the past few years, certainly since 2007?

[Wendy Loschiuk]

Where we were looking was at information that showed us how the distribution of resources was matched to known information about activity at the border.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Yes, okay, and you felt that it wasn't up to standard.

[Wendy Loschiuk]

We didn't see where the two were being matched, but I will ask Mr. Swales to give you more of the details on that, the specifics.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Yes.

[Nicholas Swales]

I think one of the key issues here is what we mention at the beginning of paragraph 5.50, which is that the performance measurement for the border programs had been revised a number of times, but for many of the measures, the information had not been gathered. If you are attempting to put in place an integrated risk management process that takes risks, takes performance, and adjusts resources accordingly, you can't effectively do that in the absence of performance information.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Okay. I've closed that loop myself. I started questioning a little while ago about that.

Without injecting any more, I'm going to go to Mr. Slinn for his response to that.

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

I was hopeful you were satisfied with that answer, but apparently not.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Well, I have time, so I might as well use it.

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

It's my pleasure to respond.

I think that from the RCMP's perspective on how we allocate our resources with our integrated border enforcement teams, we rely greatly on threat assessments that are produced provincially, nationally, and collaboratively with our U.S. colleagues. That's generally speaking how we allocate resources, so we look at the intelligence, we see there's a threat in a particular area, and we move resources there.

I think what the OAG found, and rightfully so, was that we didn't always have a record of decision that said, “We're moving our resources over to this spot to address this threat.” There wasn't a record of decision in light of the performance metrics as well. So although we believed we were making sound decisions based on threat assessments and that's how we allocated our resources, we need to up our game in terms of having the record of decision to demonstrate, through an audit, that those decisions were sound and that they were based on performance.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Yes, that's what the gist of my question was. It wasn't about whether it was a sound decision. It's just the record-keeping of the matter that you're hoping to strive to improve over the next little while.

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

Yes.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

This is an issue for the Office of the Auditor General first, and I'll get to you after, Mr. Bolduc.

There was a story some time ago about the issuing of firearms, which has been going on since 2006. Was your office tasked to look at that and how that's being implemented, or no?

[Wendy Loschiuk]

You're speaking about the issuing of firearms to border services officers.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Yes, I'm sorry, to CBSA.

[Wendy Loschiuk]

We haven't looked at that recently, no. I can't speak to that right now.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Okay.

Since I don't have that much time, Mr. Bolduc, would you like to answer that question? Can you offer comment as to where you are now since 2006, when an implementation order was there for firearms to be used by CBSA?

[Martin Bolduc]

We are pursuing the arming of our front line. I think the commitment was that the front line would be armed by 2016. We're on track to meet that deadline. I don't have the latest number of officers who have been trained. If the chair would like me to, I can easily provide that number to the committee.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sure. Mr. Simms is nodding that he would appreciate that. Yes, thank you.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Yes. Thank you very much. I would appreciate seeing the numbers on that.

I apologize if that's outside the scope of what we're doing here.