Evidence of meeting #112 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Who administered the program? Was it through transfers to the organizations and they made decisions, or was this direct government to student?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I would ask Madam Laforest to go into the technicality of how the money flowed and if it was for the students—
Conservative
Shelie Laforest Acting Senior Director, Program Directorate, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Funding the student is through first nations.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
It was money that was transferred to the first nations.
Acting Senior Director, Program Directorate, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes.
Joe Martire Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Mr. Chair, this issue shows up in two places in our report. The first place is when we use it as an example to show data that is available within the department. Keep in mind this is data we've received when we mined the department's education system, and how it could have been used but wasn't used to improve program results. That's under paragraph 62 regarding the inadequate use of data.
We pointed out that the department had this information and despite these consistently poor results over a four-year period, we didn't see any evidence that there was any discussion to improve the outcome.
The other area where it comes up is in how information is reported. That's in paragraph 97. There we say that in fiscal year 2011-12, the department reported that 1,017 of these students were in transition to university. It really was that's how many students received the funds. There weren't a thousand students going to university.
Yes, over 4,000 over that four-year period received funds to support themselves, to prepare for going to post-secondary, but a very small percentage, about 8%, actually went. Over that period, although the department had the data, we didn't see any evidence of any attempt to make improvements, to find out what was going on.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
There was no feedback to the communities that had—
Principal, Office of the Auditor General
That's right, and then in one year we looked at how the results were being reported. They reported that all of the thousand were going to university when in fact the thousand was how many people received the funding.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you. Your time is up. We can come back to you.
Now we'll go to Madam Yip, please. You have five minutes.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Mr. Tremblay, it's mentioned in the education results that in the past 18 years there was no report on student attendance. I think attendance is very important. It's usually the first indication of student problems. I love it when I get those calls from the school for my own kids. It usually gives me a chance to grill them.
Is that being changed?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We are working with first nations on the right indicators to use, the ones that are meaningful. There has been some resistance to attendance.
I'm like you. My mother got a lot of calls in the past, and so I tend to think it's important, but I don't want to presume what the indicators would be, because we're not necessarily thinking about what we will use as indicators. We want to do it with first nations partners, so it's a discussion we have with them on what they think and what the common indicators should be, the set of indicators that are meaningful and track results.
That's one we're taking into consideration. I don't want to presume the conclusions of our discussions with our partners, but I take your point.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I don't want to speak for them on this, but I've been hearing that for them it's not necessarily the best indicator.
Shelie, do you have some more information on this?
Acting Senior Director, Program Directorate, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The discussion that has occurred so far is about whether it's the attendance or tracking the students. Is it about attendance or is it more about retention? I believe it's a difference of opinion with regard to indicators around retention and tracking students versus attendance, and which one provides a better measure.
That is the comment we've received. Other considerations will come into play.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
What other unique needs of first nations students are being tracked or being assessed in your discussions with the first nations that are specific to their communities?
Acting Senior Director, Program Directorate, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I can speak to the B.C. agreement, as it's a signed agreement.
If you look at the agreement you will find indicators around connectivity and around literacy by grade. They have attendance rates in their framework. They have their teacher-student ratios. In the B.C. agreement there is a list of indicators. I'm going by memory, but those would be examples, for the B.C. context, that they have decided are appropriate measures to demonstrate results, from a B.C. perspective, as an example.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
This is included in the agreement, but my experience with FNHA is that they will also develop their own indicators afterwards.
Acting Senior Director, Program Directorate, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
If you look at the agreement, there are many other indicators. I have given these as an example, but there are many variations of indicators, reported to committees, reported to us, reported as well by the provinces to first nations. It's a comprehensive framework that you find in the agreement, with several indicators reported at different levels to the various players in the education system.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Those are very good questions, Ms. Yip.
Is there a problem with these indicators? When we work together with them to develop the indicators to use, are the indicators chosen the true indicators that we need to get the answers? I think that's the question. Has the Auditor General given any idea of which indicators should be there, on the issues, for example, of school attendance and others?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
At the moment I don't see it as a problem. We have those discussions. You know, people 14 months ago would have said we could not agree on a funding formula, and we are progressing quite a lot on that. We will see what comes out of the discussions, but it's our experience, in our first experience at this stage, that it is easier to agree on indicators when we have a regional discussion.