Evidence of meeting #112 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
When will we know the indicators? There are some shorter timelines here. Going back to Ms. Yip's question, some of the long-term expected completion dates are 2021 to 2023, but you have some that are short-term.
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
The first regional education agreement is to be finalized by December 2018. Results-based management approaches tailored to support local priorities are anticipated to be completed by December 2018.
Are you on schedule for these?
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Are you, with certainty?
4:40 p.m.
Acting Senior Director, Program Directorate, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The agreement that was signed in British Columbia—
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No, we just signed a renewal.
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It was quite a renewal, because you have to adapt the new—
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You've given us some short-term timelines showing that they were going to accomplish this by December 2018, but you've just signed the renewal. Is it a real, hard and fast timeline that's going to be met?
Are we going to be able to actually measure that you're completing these, or are these faits accomplis even long before you've given us this date?
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No, these are not long-time faits accomplis. We've been negotiating the TFA in B.C. intensively during the summer. It was not necessarily a fait accompli. We just announced it less than a month ago.
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It was a renewal, because it took place where we started those things, but there are other discussions currently going on in other regions, and I'm confident that we will make progress.
As I said before, we also created two school boards in two years, basically, which is actually quite good.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thanks, Chair.
I want to thank you for shoring up the important macro message that we had. I appreciate it. I think you were also anticipating where I may be going when you suggested that we're going to be keeping this one on a short leash.
I think that with any of these reports, given the context that we have, we should let the department know that we're going to take them up on their offer to follow them and measure them. We will. We have great staff. Nothing gets by them.
I have a straight-up question. On page 7, in paragraph 5.31 of the Auditor General's report, we read:
In 2000, Indigenous Services Canada committed to measuring and reporting on the education gap every two years. As of December 2017, we found that the Department had not met this commitment.
Pourquoi?
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I don't know, to be honest with you. I know what I control. I don't know why it was decided not to report—data not available, quality of data, maybe. I think we have made progress in terms of exchange of information and data.
My sense is, as I mentioned before, developing national indicators is one thing. If you really want to be meaningful in your co-development process with first nations, ideally you would go to the regional level. That's where we think we're going to get success, and for us, that's where it's going to go. National will come from that, but I think in the past we potentially took too much of a top-down approach. This is what we think it is.
We asked first nations communities, as you said before, under-funded and without necessarily with the capacity to send the information. We set them up sometimes for not necessarily success.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
I do appreciate your frankness, but it still leaves us with a question. I heard your answer, but I don't see a lot of nuance in any answer here.
Your department made a commitment to do something, to give reports, important reports on an important matter, and it didn't do it. You talk about it like it's the distant past—
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
4:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
—but the reference point is December 2016. That means that whoever was there in 2016 also ignored it, because that's what it looks like. This is what really troubles us. It's a complex file. You have a difficult job; nobody will question that. I don't envy you your job, but when it's things like this, this obvious, and you make a promise—it's a simple one—that every two years, you'll report this.... Seven years go by, and the department doesn't even bother.
When people wonder why Romeo Saganash did what he did in the House of Commons, it's things like this. This is just, “Yeah, yeah, we'll do it; don't worry,” to get through the moment. One and done, we call it.
What it looks like, and I know it's not true, but what it looks like is a lack of compassion or caring.
It wasn't really a question, it was more of a rhetorical question.
I do want to move—
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I hope you don't question my caring and compassion, sorry.
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I hope you don't question my compassion.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
No, no, you're sincere.
I'm just telling you that I've had lots of Tremblays sit here and give me the same promises; that's all. I haven't heard you say anything new, anything I haven't heard before; that's all.