Evidence of meeting #113 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jag.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerome Berthelette  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Jody Thomas  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Andrew Hayes  Senior General Counsel, Office of the Auditor General
Geneviève Bernatchez  Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Pat Kelly  Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
Randeep Sarai  Surrey Centre, Lib.
James Bezan  Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, CPC

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

I have a question that I would like to ask our guests. We do a study and we do a report. We table a report in Parliament as to the study that we have undertaken in regard to the Auditor General's study. My analysts here have given me one question that we would like to have for the report that we will build. That is the question regarding the department's response to paragraph 3.86, pertaining to the independence of the two directorates.

Let me just read into the record what the recommendation is from the AG, and then your response to that. Paragraph 3.86 reads:

The Judge Advocate General should assess whether its practices and processes affect the independence of the Director of Military Prosecutions and the Director of Defence Counsel Services, and whether any adjustments or mitigation measures should be established.

In your response to that, you agreed with him and said that:

By January 2019, the Office of the Judge Advocate General (JAG) will perform a thorough review of its relationship with the Director of Military Prosecutions and the Director of Defence Counsel Services to ensure their respective independent roles within the military justice system are respected. This will encompass a review of all existing policy directives to the Director of Military....

How is that review coming? You're going to have it completed by January. It's not very far away. How independent are the directorates, the prosecution and defence? What can you tell us as far as how independent they are currently?

5:05 p.m.

Cmdre Geneviève Bernatchez

Thank you.

In reality, independence and the perception of independence are crucial for a legitimate military justice system. We take this matter very seriously.

The independent role of both the director of military prosecutions and the director of defence counsel services is provided for in the National Defence Act. The reporting relationship, or the general supervision that is exercised by the judge advocate general, has been provided by Parliament to the judge advocate general vis-à-vis those two actors.

In practice, on a day-to-day basis, I am exceedingly mindful of the independence of these two actors. In my strategic policy direction for the next three years, I have issued an obligation for all members of the office of the judge advocate general to assist me in the superintendence of the military justice system, in full respect of the independence of these actors.

As we're speaking, we have also completed a complete policy review of all the JAG policies as they pertain to the director of military prosecutions and the director of defence counsel services. We did that in consultation with these two directors, and we found no issues related to independence as far as these policies were concerned. The next thing we are doing currently is to continue to consult with the two directors to see what better practice we could develop to ensure not only factual independence but also the very important perception of independence.

One of the practices I've put in place this year for the reporting period is that, for the first time ever, I told the director of defence counsel services and the director of military prosecutions that they are responsible for their own personnel evaluation. I will have absolutely no role to play in this. They will evaluate them and send them directly to the centre for the selection for promotion.

I've also agreed with the director of military prosecutions' suggestion that he engage directly with the Minister of National Defence for matters that pertain to prosecution. He fully agreed with this. Where there could have been the perception before that the JAG had a role to play in that relationship, I am ensuring that, perception-wise, this is no longer the case.

When the director of military prosecutions and I discuss matters, they are strictly related to the administration of his office, the resourcing of his office, where cases might be pursuant to his determination. The National Defence Act provides for the fact that I could issue general or specific guidance in certain cases. This has never been the case. I have never issued such guidance. On the record, my predecessors who have always accomplished their duties to the very best of their abilities and very professionally have not issued such guidance. If I were to have issued such guidance, it would have to have been made public. I could issue general guidance for the director of defence counsel services. This has never been done. This would have to be made public.

Finally, these two independent actors have never brought issues of independence to the judge advocate general's attention, via their annual report mandated through the National Defence Act. They have never questioned whether in practice or in perception there was a concern in that regard. Because this is so crucial, because this goes to the heart of the legitimacy of that system, we are currently reviewing means and manners to interact that will reinforce the independence, not only factually but also the perception.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

Part of what you said has prompted my friend Mr. Christopherson to ask one more question. It will be the final question of the day.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

It's a gentle one.

Mr. Berthelette, the report said the Auditor General was concerned that there was a risk that the independence could be jeopardized. I want to hear from you. Are you satisfied with the answer you've heard, and that it answers the concerns you've raised?

5:10 p.m.

Senior General Counsel, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

I think that in the report we identified independence issues. The perception of independence was one of the things that we were concerned about. One of the areas that did give rise to some concern was the rotation of officers, which has been already addressed by the judge advocate general. The movement of officers between defence counsel and prosecution was one area that did come to our attention.

At the end of the day, we support the judge advocate general's commitment to examine the independence of those two officials, and we're looking forward to the results of that.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you all for being here.

I usually sum up a day like this by just saying that when you leave here, you may go over in your mind some of the questions that were asked and some of the answers that you gave. In the course of doing that, if you feel that you could better provide information to this committee, we would encourage you to send information in if there's anything you would like to expand on. As we build our study fairly soon, we always leave the door open for you to get hold of our clerk with that added information.

We do thank you for coming. Democracy is great, and as Mr. Nuttall, Mr. Christopherson and others have said, Canada really is the shining light in that. This is part of that. This is the transparency and the accountability part—this committee—on how government resources are spent and delivered so that Canadians can have confidence in the system.

We take the action plan very seriously. When you send us an action plan, this is the road that we're going to go down in order to accomplish the recommendations that we've agreed with. We follow up on them. We have researchers who go through it and analyze whether it's efficient or not. If it isn't, we invite you back. Really, you probably don't want to come back when that happens.

We thank you for letting us know if any of these timelines change. If you're advanced, if you're ahead of schedule, that is also good to know. We thank you for being here.

Thank you, committee, for the good questions and good day. The meeting is adjourned.