Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 26th, 2018

[James Bezan]

Right. In your opinion, as it's laid out in paragraph 32 of report 3, you actually write: “purchasing interim aircraft does not bring National Defence closer to consistently meeting the new operational requirement introduced in 2016.” That almost reads like a recommendation. Why wasn't it?

[Casey Thomas]

The decision to buy Australian jets, or to buy jets, is actually a decision of the government, not a department decision. We don't comment on the policy decisions of the government. We looked at the implementation of the policies themselves. What we found was that buying jets, Australian jets, wasn't going to help with the problems that they actually faced with respect to the shortage of pilots, technicians, and combat capability.

[James Bezan]

It has been suggested to me earlier on in the study that the Auditor General was looking at actually making that recommendation of not going ahead with the purchase of an interim fighter fleet.

[Casey Thomas]

We reported the recommendations that we have, one on pilots and technicians and one on investments in combat capability.

[James Bezan]

Would the Office of the Auditor General be looking at potentially following up on the study as it relates to the purchase of an interim fighter fleet?

[Casey Thomas]

We're always looking at the risks and what audit work we need to work on in the future, so I would say that all topics are open for auditing.

[James Bezan]

You talk about the policy change that was introduced in 2016. When was the exact date that the new operational requirements were brought into place? Do you have that information offhand?

[Casey Thomas]

I'm going to say December 2016, late 2016.

[James Bezan]

You're saying it was December 2016. Do you feel that the combination of both—not enough pilots, technicians and aircrew, along with the change in operational requirements—is creating a crisis that wasn't necessary?

[Casey Thomas]

National Defence has carried out its analysis to determine what it needs. It had identified pilots and technicians as being a need. Those are the efforts that National Defence has to take now.

[James Bezan]

Paragraph 52 in the conclusion says, “National Defence has not done enough, in part because of factors outside of its control.” Are the policy changes part of those factors outside of its control?

[Casey Thomas]

The two factors we mention in that paragraph are, one, the fact that they've been waiting for a replacement fleet for a while, and that has not helped them in terms of getting the technicians and pilots and combat capability. The second reason is the policy change in 2016.

[James Bezan]

Do you believe that National Defence and the Government of Canada don't need to spend $470 million to buy used, rusted-out, old Australian fighter jets?

[Casey Thomas]

Once again, that's a decision of the government. We're only looking at the implementation of the policy and not the decisions themselves.

[James Bezan]

How much more time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have two minutes.

[James Bezan]

Let's drill down on the combat capability.

Did the Office of the Auditor General actually fly down to look at the condition of the Australian F-18s?

[Casey Thomas]

No, we did not look at the condition of the Australian—

[James Bezan]

Did your office look at the condition based upon reports that came into National Defence?

[Casey Thomas]

We did not look at anything related to the condition of the Australian jets.

[James Bezan]

Okay.

It's my understanding that the planes Australia bought are just slightly older. They're a different block from the fleet we currently have here in Canada, which we bought from 1980 to 1982. I understand that upgrading them to our standards is going to be quite a bit of work.

When you look at the costs of upgrades, especially as you look at combat capability, you see our fighter fleet hasn't been upgraded in 10 years. I understand that with the Australian fleet it's even longer, plus their airframes are slightly different, so it makes plug-and-play a little more challenging.

Has that at all weighed into the overall factors on whether or not the purchase is rational?

[Casey Thomas]

We looked at what it was going to cost to buy and operate the planes. It's going to be about $471 million to buy and modify them. National Defence analysis has demonstrated that it can modify them to be the same or very similar to the Canadian fleet. It's going to spend about $558 million to operate them.

[James Bezan]

Going back to paragraph 3.32, it states that “purchasing interim aircraft does not bring National Defence closer to consistently meeting the new operational requirement”. The government, after they were aware of the report, of course, which was tabled last week, announced that they have officially signed the contract to buy the 25 Australian Hornets. Do you feel that they've ignored your advice?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Go ahead, Ms. Thomas.

[Casey Thomas]

As I mentioned, the decision to purchase Australian jets is a government decision based on government departmental information.