Evidence of meeting #128 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was areas.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerome Berthelette  Assistant Auditor General, Performance Audit, Office of the Auditor General
John Knubley  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Ian Scott  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Philippe Le Goff  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
René Arseneault  Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.
Lisa Setlakwe  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Pat Kelly  Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
Randeep Sarai  Surrey Centre, Lib.
Christopher Seidl  Executive Director, Telecommunications, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Michelle Gravelle  Director General, Science and Research Sector, Department of Industry

9:55 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Philippe Le Goff

Mr. Chair, I think it's a move in the right direction, according to what we heard from ISPs, the small Internet service providers. They raised this issue that they don't have the financial and technical capacity to provide the service or to bid on auctions for large tiers such as tiers two, three and even four. I think it's a step in the right direction to look at the tier 5 kind of size to allow small providers to participate.

9:55 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

John Knubley

To clarify, we are consulting on the tier 5, and no decision has yet been made on how we would move to that tier five.

Let me again just give a bit of background. Tier 1 basically is Canada. Tier 2 is basically by province. Tier 3 has 59 regional areas within the higher population cities, if you like, and we use that for mid-range frequency bands. Tier 4 is 172 local areas. We certainly think that we would benefit by going deeper and more granular in terms of our service areas and in that respect agree with what the Auditor General raised, but we haven't made the formal decision on how we will move forward—

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

What would be the timeline for revealing the outcomes of those consultations?

9:55 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

John Knubley

In terms of the consultations, they're ongoing—

9:55 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Lisa Setlakwe

Right now.

Mr. John Knubley —right now, so I think we will be reporting on the consultations.... Lisa?

9:55 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Lisa Setlakwe

Later this year or early next year.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Albas. We'll now move to Ms. Yip, please.

Ms. Yip, you have five minutes.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

[Technical difficulty—Editor] so how can the groundwork for 5G be started if the most remote communities haven't been serviced? Wouldn't it be better to spend the money to service these communities before paying for the 5G groundwork?

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Go ahead, Mr. Scott.

10 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Ian Scott

Perhaps I can begin. My colleagues may want to add to this.

I think technology in this area is evolving quite quickly. One of the things we're seeing is that fibre is being pushed farther and farther out into the network, not only to provide broadband service but also to support mobile wireless service and, in future, 5G. I think that a few years from now there may not be much of a distinguishing between the two, so all of this infrastructure for higher capacity, higher bandwidth and higher speed is being pushed out to both small and large communities, and that will enable both high-speed broadband and 5G. I'm not sure if that helps as a starting point in response to your question.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

I just feel bad, still, for those remote communities that don't have it or don't have—

10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

John Knubley

Maybe I would add, though, that one thing we do, which we looked at really in our last two programs, connect to innovate and connecting Canadians, is that we don't always look for the technology that solves the immediate problem. We are looking for projects that have the capacity to grow, if you like, from 4G to 5G and LTE and that sort of thing. Typically, in the projects for the most remote areas—this is why technology is such an important consideration—we look at how well the technology can evolve and allow for the community to have a service not just today but also in the future.

Although it's not directly related to your question, maybe I could add something on satellite service, which we haven't mentioned yet. Of course, there's evolving technology in the satellite service. We recently funded—it was in the last budget—a LEO satellite initiative by Telesat. This does offer a huge opportunity in the north to provide new access to broadband at higher speeds than ever before.

Again, a big consideration, which you're totally right to raise, is about what technology is the right technology for these remote areas. I think we try to be as flexible as possible and try to see as well if the technology we're putting in today can expand in coverage and service and access in the future.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Okay.

How did ISED support small businesses and diverse ISPs in remote and rural regions in accessing CTI funding?

February 21st, 2019 / 10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

John Knubley

I think about a third of the actual companies in the projects are small ISPs. We certainly are always talking to small ISPs and looking for opportunities for them to participate in projects. That's the short answer.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Just to follow up, has the connectivity map been made publicly available?

10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

John Knubley

It's on the Canada portal.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

As well, has the connect to innovate program website been opened up to allow third party ISPs and stakeholders interested in the backbone services to apply for those projects? Has that been opened up?

10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

John Knubley

We don't use the portal for an application. There are issues, in terms of the ISP footprint, around commercial sensitivity. Basically, again, we are trying to promote small ISP participation. Recently, separate from the program, we've been consulting with the small ISPs to understand what the challenges are in their programming and how we can do a better job in incorporating their interests. In our projects, for example, we definitely want to ensure indigenous involvement, ISP involvement, in the actual delivery of the program. I think we were quite successful in getting indigenous companies in the CTI case.

Is the number 190?

10:05 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Lisa Setlakwe

Yes, 190 communities; and a third of the funding is directed to indigenous communities.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Ms. Yip.

We'll move to Mr. Christopherson, please.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I've been following the bouncing ball, as well as looking at the paper trail we have, and I'm still not satisfied that we've got to the nub of this lack of a national broadband strategy, which was recommended time after time after time for 12 years.

When the Auditor General went in and asked why there wasn't one, according to what we've heard today, the department was—and I'm quoting—“reluctant to establish a strategy with an objective that could not be reached with the available funding.”

I didn't hear anything about nuance, about all the problems of trying to bring all the people together. In fact, when it's difficult and tough like this, with multiple dimensions to the complexity of it, there is all the more need for a strategy, even if the first thing you say is that we have to get all the provinces, territories, and federal government on the same page in terms of what we agree on: “This is what we need to do. Here's who's responsible. Here's the process. Here's the time frame.”

Instead, what we're hearing, in my opinion, is from governments who have refused...because they didn't want to face the bill. I get the politics of it, but that doesn't make it right in terms of governance. That strategy needed to be in place, and the response at the time that the Auditor General went in was that they hadn't yet done it. Now they're bragging about the fact that they're doing it.

Let's take a look at the time frame. The audit was done about 18 months ago, which is usually when they begin. The deputy mentioned that there was a meeting in June of last year and on October 26, and between those two meetings that's when it was decided that there needed to be a strategy—just in time to get in front of the public hearing on the auditor's report.

If nothing else, I want to claim victory for the auditing system we have in Canada. After 12 years of governments—plural—dragging their heels on doing the right thing in terms of public policy, it took the Auditor General to roll in there and hold them to account. They then come to this committee where, under the glare of public scrutiny, they now acknowledge that they're going to give us a national strategy. I would submit to you, Chair, that if we'd not had an audit, there still would be no plans for a national strategy.

I have to say that I am rejecting the answers I'm hearing from the deputy.

I understand why you're saying it, and I understand it's part of your role, but you also have a responsibility as an accounting officer now. Unlike when I first got here and the rules weren't clear, now they are clear.

The public interest would only have been served if there was a national strategy, and there wasn't one, because no government wanted to be held to account for not spending the money it would take to implement it. That's what it looks like to me.

The important thing right now for me is that the strategy is on track—at least it's there.

I also want to mention, if I can parenthetically, that again, this is one of the issues that most of us don't get too cranked up about, because we have the best service. Most Canadians live in urban centres and everything is fine.

However, when I listen to my colleague, Carol Hughes, talk about what's going on in her riding, and especially when she ties it to the banks that are closing branches in her rural areas, the need for Internet is not only beyond necessity, but is right up there with housing and health and food.

My question, Mr. Berthelette, is on whether you have had a chance to see the strategy at all.

10:10 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Performance Audit, Office of the Auditor General

Jerome Berthelette

No, Mr. Chair.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Do you have any current plans to go in and examine the strategy?

I only say that in the context that often the AG will signal ahead of time, “Look, for particular reasons we're going back in in short order on this one.”

Sometimes they don't.... Are there any current plans to do that?

10:10 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Performance Audit, Office of the Auditor General

Jerome Berthelette

At this point, we have no current plans to follow up.