Evidence of meeting #128 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was areas.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
The reason is just that there wasn't coordination and there couldn't be coordination with provinces. That's why there was no national—
9:45 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
There are issues of coordination, technology, and there are issues of money. As you have just heard, the cost of meeting the 50/10 goal, at least as we currently estimate it, is $8 to $9 billion.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Would you very quickly summarize your point, and we'll come back to you.
9:45 a.m.
Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
That's, then, a political question. You can have a strategy, a public strategy, but if a government won't fund your strategy, then that's a political question and one for the voters.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
9:45 a.m.
Randeep Sarai Surrey Centre, Lib.
I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Arseneault.
I have a couple of quick questions, but, first of all, despite what my colleagues on the other side are saying, it seems like this strategy is working and there are 900 communities connected or being connected.
My first question is for the deputy minister.
How are we ensuring that the connectivity infrastructure is designed to grow and expand, i.e., to meet newer and higher speed demands? Are the conduits being made? Is the infrastructure being built so that we can expand to faster speeds, or will it have to be rebuilt every time? Is that being looked at when this infrastructure is being built?
9:45 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Yes, it's being constantly reviewed and assessed. There are several ways we do that. One way would be this mapping activity that's been referenced, which is in fact shared publicly. We basically look at areas of 25 square miles. We look at the number of people, the households, the community needs, and then we put on top of that the actual ISP map, if you like, of current service, and then we try to assess what the gaps are and what the specific needs are in those particular areas. Lisa can elaborate on this, but basically we work with the CRTC, we work with the provinces and with the private sector continually to reassess what we're doing. Specifically right now, because of the 50/10 goal, we're trying to identify where those gaps are across the country and what the priorities are in that regard.
Just very quickly, there's also spectrum, of course, that we auction, and the private sector participates in those auctions. As I mentioned, we typically look at, will there be dominance? Do we need to set aside certain amounts of spectrum for the rural area to promote the participation of smaller ISPs?
9:50 a.m.
Surrey Centre, Lib.
By that same token, how are you making sure there are clusters, certain service providers? If there are only small communities, with very small populations, you don't want to have Telus in one place and Rogers in another. How are we making sure there is enough critical mass for a cluster to keep expanding, making sure that the speed and the type of service is adequate for the technological needs?
9:50 a.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry
To go back to your first question, one of the things that is assessed under the connect to innovate program, for example, is the technology that's being used and the potential for scalability in the future. Those are things that are definitely considered.
In addition, when we are providing federal funding, there is a requirement for those receiving that federal funding to share their infrastructure under certain terms and conditions. That is a requirement as well. We try to use all the levers that we have to promote competition.
9:50 a.m.
Surrey Centre, Lib.
As my riding is only 40 square kilometres, I will give it to Mr. Arseneault.
9:50 a.m.
Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.
Mine is 12,000.
Thank you for your answers. They are very informative, as I am no technician.
There must be territorial, provincial and federal agreements or collaboration. I think Canadians can do that. As for technological complications, the technicians are there to help and support us.
It's all about money. Two years ago, I went around the main suppliers. We know them well. I will not name them, but they are always the same. It was clear that they were reluctant to connect the remote areas.
Let me oversimplify a little. Basically, they told us that they would connect these regions if they were paid for it, but that they were not interested in investing in this connectivity because it was not financially profitable. We live in a capitalist world.
I now turn to Mr. Scott from the CRTC.
The major Internet service providers have an oligopoly; they agree among themselves. We all know how it goes, we are not naive. The licence that the CRTC grants to those providers is a privilege. Within the limits of its jurisdiction, would the CRTC have a way of making them aware that the licence it gives them to expand their services includes an obligation to serve all Canadians, from coast to coast or from forest to forest? If so, could you tell me how this could be done legally?
9:50 a.m.
Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
It is a very complex issue.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In this report, the Auditor General recommended that the government create detailed connectivity maps and have those available. In speaking to stakeholders, I've learned that there also seems to be a complete deficit of information on what infrastructure is truly in the ground.
I'm going to ask a question of both industry and the CRTC. Do either of your organizations have a full and complete map of the telecommunications infrastructure that is installed throughout our country?
9:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
We have what's called the national broadband Internet service availability map. You can go and access it. All Canadians can get into the map itself. It's really a searchable map. As I mentioned, it's a summary of the current services by area. An area is typically defined as a 25 square kilometre area. It shows population and communities, and then it shows ISP footprints.
The challenge with the sharing of information is that some of that actual ISP footprint aspect is commercially sensitive. In that particular area, we have to aggregate some of the data. Also on our maps—we've mentioned the connect to innovate program—is the 2014 program, connecting Canadians. People can go on our map and see where the projects are.
Last, if 50/10 is our goal, the thing we've done with our map more recently—and we've been working with CRTC on this—is to try to show where the gaps are in terms of 50/10 service.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Do you have an inventory somewhere of all the telecommunications infrastructure and where it is? I do realize that there are some sensitivities about releasing that information to the public, but I'd like to know whether or not the government actually has an understanding of it's own inventory. Are you relying on the information that telecommunications companies give you?
9:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
It's constantly being discussed with the private sector, and then we verify what that service provision is by talking to the communities and the people. We're constantly doing consultations, really, to verify what it is that we know in relation to spectrum, for example.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
There is no formal list you have where you've required that. It's just simply “we'd like to know what you have” and then you display some of that information so that Canadians can have that.
9:55 a.m.
Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I may add to that just briefly, for the carriers for which the CRTC has regulatory authority, we do obtain detailed information. It's not voluntary. They regularly file information with us. It's that information, along with that collected by the ISED department, that is used to populate the data in the broadband maps.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Thank you.
ISED has started to consult on smaller geographic areas for spectrum allocation.
To the Auditor General's office, is that move consistent with the recommendations in your report?
To the industry department, is the thinking that smaller geographic areas will be used for all spectrum auctions going forward?