Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 17th, 2016

[Jean Cintrat, Director General, Cabinet and Parliamentary Affairs and Executive Services Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you.

At Public Safety Canada we also track vacancies very closely and keep an eye on upcoming vacancies, provide that information to the minister's office and to the organizations with whom we work in the portfolio. To the extent possible, we also try to work ahead on any vacancies in preparing the support material and documentation that the minister requires to be able to make a decision in the end.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Ms. Dooher, you're next.

[Shelley Dooher]

We have a dedicated team that tracks these very closely. In my 30 years as a public servant, the engagement and training that PCO has undertaken on this initiative is unprecedented. We have weekly calls and beyond that many follow-ups, so I think they are, in their own gentle way, forcing us to ensure that we have processes in place to help us manage not only the workload, but to ensure that we have vacancies that are coming due, and that we are dealing with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you. That is good to hear. Congratulations for your—what did you call it—peaceful ways.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

She said gentle ways.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Gentle ways, all right.

Mr. McColeman, please, you have five minutes.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I want to deal with the succession issue. From a background of owning a building company, I think in terms of blueprints and of step one, step two, step three. This is for any of you, I suppose, but perhaps the Auditor General could begin. I tend to view my time here observing a lot of political influence. If there's an elephant in the room, that's what it is; when it gets to the political level, in many cases these are patronage appointments. These are people who eat, drink, and breathe the same ideology as the current government. Maybe I'm dead wrong. We're trying in a way to be correct about making sure they have the required skill sets.

Don't get me wrong in the sense that incompetent individuals would be appointed, but I want to be candid with you, if I can. Again, use your own discretion on whether you want to answer or not.

In your experience over time with this, and considering that it seems to me that perhaps a better approach from that step-by-step process would be putting time limits on ministerial staff and ministers to make decisions, and getting people in place on a timely basis, that's one of the major criticisms.

I have anecdotal personal knowledge of someone who was trying to find out whether he would be reappointed and kept saying he needed to know to plan his life, spent an extra year, and then suddenly found himself not being told. I'm not going to bring up names or situations or anything like that, but that's the reality. I know the situation.

That's a broad thing to state, but what are the political realities that you can share with us that could make it better, from your point of view? I'm not expecting overnight change in any particular government not wanting to have control politically of these appointments, but if there were a step by step process, if ministers had a deadline they had to decide by, would that help?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I don't want to cut into Mr. McColeman's question, but in one of the paragraphs, you said, and I think this builds on what Mr. McColeman said, “It is also worth noting that during implementation of the new process, the Government has decided to make appointments or re-appointments to positions that are essential for the good governance or continuity of government business that may not include the full set of new measures announced this year.”

When we read something like that, it might be easy to say here's the new process. We have the process, but because the government wants continuity of government policy and government business, they're just going to appoint whomever. Is that fair?

[Janine Sherman]

I think that my point in putting forward the government's approach to the reappointments on a transitional basis...and many of them are reappointments of incumbents, that is, people who are in the position and they are extending their term. I'm not in a position to say that it is political influence. I think that is an incumbent whose term is being extended in order to have a selection process that will meet the requirements of the open, transparent, and merit-based process. It really is a transition in terms of getting to the full selection process that I outlined, which does take some time in terms of advertising, managing a selection process, vetting and considering candidates, and then of course providing advice to the minister. That does take a certain amount of time. As I mentioned, in a project planning sense we do have timelines and ideas about how long that takes, which is part of the information that we work with among the network of departments that support ministers.

There is a good understanding about the time frame that is involved. In order to ensure continuity, where terms may have been expiring in February, March, or June, the government did take an approach of reappointing or making some temporary appointments. I wouldn't take that as an end run on the process that has been announced. It is definitely a transitional approach.

There are some inherent timelines in terms of how the process works. Ministers are wanting to manage their vacancies and make sure that the organizations they are responsible for have the appointments and the people in place to carry out the mandate that they are accountable for. Within the system there are some timelines that are clearly in place. Our job in the public service is to back it up from those timelines and make sure that we can support their recommendations to the Governor in Council with a sound process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Ms. Sherman.

Mr. Lefebvre.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dendooven, a little earlier, you mentioned that you work with a team in Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada and that you make recommendations to the minister. Is that for positions on the tribunals for which the department is responsible?

[David Dendooven]

I am sorry, Mr. Chair. I did not understand the question.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

A little earlier, you spoke about your role and about recommendations for candidates for positions on a tribunal.

[David Dendooven]

Actually, I may have not have expressed myself correctly.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Okay.

[David Dendooven]

My team works like those in the other departments. We are there to support the minister. We work closely with the Privy Council Office to support the new process.

I talked about the team’s work, which is to make sure that there is some monitoring of the positions to be filled, now or later. We have to be ahead of the game.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

For how many years have you held the position?

[David Dendooven]

I have only been there for a few months.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

I am going to quickly go back to my question and repeat it.

My question is simple. During the audit period, between March 2010 and November 2015, did your department or the Privy Council Office receive or make any recommendations for any candidate to sit on the Specific Claims Tribunal Canada?

[David Dendooven]

I was not there at that time.

If I understand your question correctly, as my colleague mentioned earlier, because of the nature of the work we do within the department and the work of the tribunal, as employees of the department, we must keep some distance between us.

As for the recommendations to the tribunal made to the Governor in Council by our minister and the Minister of Justice, we are not involved at all. During our conversations with the Auditor General of Canada, we emphasized—

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Who makes those recommendations? I want to know. It is a simple question.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Canadians should know whether they can trust the system. We have a tribunal. The Auditor General comes and tells us that there have been no appointments in three years. There is a vacuum, there is a problem and there are unacceptable delays. However, you are telling me that you don't know what is happening. The question I am asking is simple and I would like to get an answer, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Ms. Sherman.

[Janine Sherman]

It is the minister who makes the recommendations to the GIC—