Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 6th, 2017

[Malcolm Brown]

It depends on how big the project is.

That's a very good question. We were debating just this morning in terms of what the cut-off point is between dozens—my words, nobody else's—of individual indicators that take time and money to develop versus one or two that could cut across. But the problem then is causality, because all of these were supposed to support security. How do you measure security? So we have to drill down a couple of layers.

You will see the product of our work collectively, and all the other departments', over the course of the year, and you'll have an opportunity to tell us how short of the mark we have fallen. I suspect the Auditor General will do the same.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Christopherson and I just had a conversation on the side about NEXUS cards. When there's a big lineup, I love my NEXUS card, but I can't quantify that for you; I can't tell that to you. Yet, if there's a small lineup, you wouldn't necessarily see the benefit. I look at that in the same way as I do at border crossings. When you have a huge lineup, and you have a NEXUS card, and you get to go along the side and pass three hours worth of wait, I can see the benefit, but how do I quantify that? How do I put that into a number that extracts value? How do I say to you guys that having that extra hour and a half to travel and not waiting at the border saved me $100,000? Again, I can't do that, and there's no way to find that out. I can definitely see your issues there in how to put that model in place.

You're six years into communications or technologies. How do you know that the technology you have now is still current and still the best of the best? It's already starting to be six years old with lots of changes. How do you keep that up to date, and how do you keep improving that?

[John Ossowski]

There are individual technologies that have been in place for some time, and they're reliable, and that's why we use them. There are other ones that are more recent. Some of the biometric stuff on the NEXUS card, for example, is more recent. We're trying to have a consistent approach with that and harmonizing with the United States, where we're both using the same technology, so it's very clear and consistent. I have had no indication there's an issue with the technology. Obviously there will be refreshes as they go through. There's always a life cycle to these things, and we account for that in the plan. I've heard no concerns about anything not being up to snuff.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Mr. Arya for five minutes.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Brown, while answering a question, you mentioned that the question is not about monies wasted. In this committee we have seen Shared Services Canada. I'm sure we are going to see the Phoenix system, quite a big project, and we'll see how much money was wasted there.

You also mentioned that some of the factors that have delayed the spending are outside the scope of a department. However, the entry/exit initiative that was scheduled to be completed by June 2014 has not been done. You have spent $53 million there, and the Auditor General says that it could not be implemented without a change in legislation. That is certainly not outside the scope. It's somewhere with the government or with the department.

What is the status of that?

[Malcolm Brown]

I'll answer very briefly and then let my colleagues who are responsible for the initiative continue. The legislation has been introduced. There have been elements of it that have been implemented. It has not been completed, but there have been elements that have been implemented. There's lots of work that's been done and can be demonstrated.

[John Ossowski]

It has been going for a while with respect to foreign nationals and permanent residents. The next stage in having all travellers as a part of the system is something that we had to wait for, because we needed the enabling legislation. There was a change in government during that time as well, so it's taken some time.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

When do you expect it to be completed?

[John Ossowski]

We need the legislation to be passed, so we're in this pause right now waiting for the final bill to be approved by the government, and then—

[Malcolm Brown]

It's actually up to parliamentarians.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

On the Border Services Agency's trusted traveller initiative, the Auditor General says it was launched in August 2015 but was soon taken offline because it was creating significant problems. You have spent $31 million on this initiative out of $50 million.

What is the current status of that?

[John Ossowski]

We're currently waiting for the United States Customs and Border Protection agency to do a systems upgrade, which will allow for the harmonization of the system.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Until they do that, the investments we have made are not leading to results.

[John Ossowski]

That's correct.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

With regard to NEXUS once again, have the recent changes in the U.S. administration and their executive orders affected the program in any way?

[John Ossowski]

As you've seen in the reporting on that, there have been some issues, but this is a very dynamic environment right now with respect to that small subset that was identified in the executive order. We'll watch the different court cases unfold and see where it ends up, but from our perspective, it's status quo on the Canadian side.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Your agency and the RCMP, and many other agencies, require close co-operation working with your counterparts in the U.S.

[John Ossowski]

Yes.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Have you noticed any changes in the last couple of months?

[Martin Bolduc]

We work daily with our colleagues at USCBP, and we haven't seen any changes. They're still engaged, and we have a common goal of protecting the border.

[D/Commr Gilles Michaud]

It's the same at our end. There are no changes at all.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Do you expect any changes or are you making any contingency plans?

[John Ossowski]

No. For us it's business as usual.

[D/Commr Gilles Michaud]

No.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

That's good.