Public Accounts Committee on May 3rd, 2017

[A voice]

No, we don't.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

They don't know that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Forster, maybe while the huddle is going on, you have—

We're back.

[LGen C.A. Lamarre]

My apologies, I didn't mean to take away too much of the time.

Part of it comes down to what it is that you are actually able to attract from the population as well. Sometimes when you're looking at that, you want to bring in people because you are resourced to bring in numbers.

When we're looking at the targets for occupations, it's usually over a five-year cycle, so even though we might over-recruit in one year, that might actually help us in “out” years when we're going to need a greater intake of those people. Five-year targets are established for the annual military occupation review system, so that's one thing right there. Also, since you are resourced to have those things, you might as well recruit where you can and take in those folks, because you know you're going to need them.

Some occupations are not as attractive. Sometimes it's difficult to actually get folks in a given year to come and say, “I want to be a hull tech,” because when you say hull tech, that doesn't sound nearly as attractive as firefighter or fighter pilot, for example.

That is the reality of what we are dealing with in a system that is not bang on the number every single year, but it is based on five-year windows of targeting, based on mathematical probabilities and mathematical modelling to see what we're going to have, and knowing what historically has been the number of people who have gotten out every year and anticipating “get-outs”. It really comes down to making sure we can, over the years, continue to fill all of our occupations to the ability we can, and some years you get more than others.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

I'll let you summarize very quickly, because we do have extra time at the end with no other questions.

Go ahead, quickly.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

You know what I would appreciate?

I would like to hear the deputy or you, General, just flat out say that you did not over-hire in one area to inflate the macro numbers. I'd just like that flat out said and stated, please.

[LGen C.A. Lamarre]

No, we did not over-hire to inflate and to make the numbers look good.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Good.

[LGen C.A. Lamarre]

We have the capacity to hire certain numbers. We have the recruiting and training system to put them through to process them, and we know, based on five-year cycles of forecasting, that we're going to need those people.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's good.

[LGen C.A. Lamarre]

That's why we do this, to make sure we can actually keep the machine going forward.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have one more question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We're at six and a half minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What time do we adjourn normally?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We adjourn at 5:30, but I want to make sure Mr. Massé..., and then I can come back to you.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sure. I can come back. I just don't want to lose the chance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Massé.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to thank the auditor general for the excellent work he and his team do. I would also like to thank all the witnesses here today. I am aware of all the preparation that is needed when you appear before the committee. Thanks to them once again.

Mr. Forster, in your remarks you noted that women currently account for 15.2% of your strength and that your objective is 25%.

In a 2015 report, Madam Justice (retired) Deschamps condemned the armed forces' culture for being hostile to women and fertile ground for sexual harassment. In response to this report, the chief of defence staff at the time, Mr. Vance, established Operation Honour to stamp out this culture. He clearly stated that his objective was zero tolerance.

Recent progress reports have been positive in this regard. It has been noted, however, that not as much progress has been made as was hoped. Women still say that they are victims, and it is difficult for them to get justice.

My question is twofold.

Has the situation that was criticized had a significant impact on the recruitment of women into the armed forces? What strategy have the armed forces adopted to continue the work begun under Operation Honour?

[LGen C.A. Lamarre]

Let me begin with the report itself.

As you know, General Vance provided an update on the progress made.

My apologies for switching into English, but I know the terms in English better.

He indicated that indeed there were a number of actions being taken specifically to ensure that the culture of Op Honour, where you don't have any tolerance for harmful or inappropriate sexual behaviour, is being inculcated throughout the Canadian Armed Forces. I think that's an important aspect where we're starting to see some of the results, and it's important to mention it.

Every single course we offer—leadership or basic courses—in the Canadian Armed Forces has a segment specifically related to making sure people understand that this is not on. That includes every single one of the 4,500 Canadians hired in the Canadian Armed Forces who must go through training to ensure that this is understood. This is a thing that occurs every year, because every year we bring 4,500 or more people into the Canadian Armed Forces. That's why we undertake this.

We have also put in place systems for all the members already within their lines. Every single year there is training undertaken to ensure that this goes forward to eliminate harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour. I'm confident that we're going the right way.

The other indication of what's going on is that 77 individuals are going to be released because they have done some things that were not appropriate. The justice system of the Canadian Armed Forces and the administrative disciplinary system is taking care of that. That said, when you have these things being reported in the media, it does have an effect on the population as a whole.

One of the key messages we want to have out there is that we are dealing with the situation in a very aggressive manner. We have a program that is being institutionalized to clear up and to change the culture. That's an important aspect, and I think it will come to a point where folks are going to say that if there is a problem it's going to be dealt with.

As Ms. Truscott was just alluding to, we conduct studies where we go in and have “Your-Say” and ask people questions for unit life surveys. We ask, “What is going on in your unit, and what's your level of confidence that this is being dealt with?” This is something we will have to publish because it talks to a high level of confidence within our unit that, if there is an issue that is arising, the chain of command will deal with it.

All this is on top of the other initiatives taking place related to Op Honour, including training our police force to deal appropriately with investigations. We make sure they keep on digging and don't dismiss things, and we make sure they go through a very detailed process of proper investigation of these events.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

How would you assess the success of the strategy you have implemented? Has it had a positive effect on the recruitment of women?

Do you have the sense that what you described—which is highly commendable—has been understood and heard by the general public, which in turn could make it easier to recruit women into the armed forces?

[LGen C.A. Lamarre]

I don't know. I asked Ms. Truscott whether any studies had been conducted to assess the impact on recruitment specifically. I will hand it over to her in a moment to see if she has that information.

I have to admit, however, that it is becoming challenging. Once again, when we implement a program to eliminate that kind of behaviour, all kinds of things come to light initially—we are still in the fairly early stages of this operation. We are pushing more and more. We will move forward. Even if it dates back a number of years, we will review and investigate it. Our victims sometimes find the courage later in life to face up to what happened.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Do you have one other answer?

[Susan Truscott]

I would just note that our most significant issue in attracting women, visible minorities, and aboriginals is the lack of awareness about the Canadian Forces and the lack of knowledge. The advertising and marketing campaigns as well as the social media activities the deputy minister spoke about are most significant.

We know from our studies that when they understand the organization and see the almost 100 occupations available, about 30% more women express an interest in joining. The most important factor for us right now is getting out and enhancing awareness and knowledge of the Canadian Forces.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Massé.

We'll go to Mr. Lefebvre and Mr. Christopherson.