Mr. Sexton.
Evidence of meeting #97 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aecl.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #97 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aecl.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
I think I recall that the overall percentage of women in our organization is 40%.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
I don't have any other questions. If there are no other questions, we can close.
I'll go back to a question that Ms. Gallant had earlier with regard to the new directors that are coming on.
Mr. Lajeunesse's bio is on the website. Is there a reason that the directors' bios wouldn't be put on the website? All you have are the names of the directors. It almost looks like there's space for bios. It was hard to find out how many of them are actually experienced. I appreciate that you went through it and showed us the experience in different areas that they may have, but I'm just wondering if their bios will be included.
4:50 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Mr. Chair, I can assure you that these bios will be on the site.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
All right.
There is one other question that I would ask.
Is it normal practice to have someone who is still, I believe, employed as a deputy minister within Natural Resources also sit on the board?
4:50 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Yes, that's been the case for at least 10 years.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Okay. Is it only within AECL, or are there other places within crown corporations where deputy ministers...where it may be mandated that someone from the department be part of it?
4:50 p.m.
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Mr. Chair, I may be able to help.
It does occur in other crown corporations. It is not universal, so you're right to sort of recognize it as something that is different from what you might see regularly. Typically, my experience has been that appointments of government officials in an ex officio capacity has a lot to do with the significance of the institution to the broader mandates of the government. Just as an example, the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation is another where there are ex officio members from, say, the Department of Finance. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation likewise has done something very similar to bring in members from government departments. This is given the systemic nature of some of the fiscal liabilities and issues that those organizations are managing.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
I think I can understand it with regard to the finance side of it. You have a government that brings forward a vision or a direction in which it wants to go, so it has someone there.
Is there any fear of a conflict in any way? I'm trying to think of an example. The Canadian public is very concerned about nuclear, nuclear energy, and all that entails. I'm not certain what the government's mandate on that is, but it just seems to me that it might be one of those departments where having that government influence sitting on the board could cause a conflict to arise.
4:55 p.m.
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
I think it's a fair question to ask.
One, that needs to be managed. Just as we have reported in some other special examinations where you have representative boards, there are challenges with.... What I mean by a representative board is that you have stakeholders with an interest in the activities of the organization participating in the governance of that organization.
Similarly in those, you have the same question that you raised as to whether or not that potentially poses a conflict of interest. Our position, and what we've recommended, is that this needs to be carefully managed when issues are brought to the board that potentially could be seen in that regard. It needs to be managed as to how the voting and participation of those members occurs with those particular types of events.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Are there places where you would expect that this director would recuse himself? We always hear the term that such-and-such is a crown corporation, that it's an arm's-length crown corporation. How arm's length is it if deputy ministers are actually sitting on the board?
4:55 p.m.
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
I think that if it's managed properly in terms of dealing with the particular issues you're raising, you can get the best of both worlds, effectively. You can get the insight into what's important from the principal shareholder. I think it is important not to lose sight that, although we create an arm's-length crown corporation to manage issues outside the normal activities of government, it is still an instrument of the government. The principal shareholder is the government, and it often has a point of view that's important for board members to be aware of. It's a very useful tool in that capacity to allow information to be shared with board members.
You then have to watch where the particular issues might be that may be perceived as creating a conflict and try to manage those, perhaps through recusal, but perhaps by other means as well.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Is it public knowledge when a director recuses himself? Who checks that out? It doesn't fall under the Ethics Commissioner. If we had a minister who was in a conflict, he would recuse himself of any decision, any conversation, or any talk during that, but who polices that?
4:55 p.m.
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
First it would be the board itself, and second, all those crown corporations are subject to a special examination by the Office of the Auditor General. One of the things we look at is the way in which conflicts are managed in individual organizations. Certainly the minutes of boards are not public knowledge, to the best of my understanding, so it's largely dealt with through that mechanism.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
I have one other quick question for Mr. Lajeunesse or Mr. MacLellan.
You said in your report that there was a deficiency in terms of representation on the board. New members have been added to the board. It seems they're capable individuals. There are five sitting on the board, and the statute allows four to seven to sit on the board.
Do you think that having five on the board is sufficient, or are you still looking for more expertise? Are you looking for another position or two to put on the board, or are you quite happy that five is a good working number?
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Mr. Chair, the seven members of the board include the CEO, so we have six individuals on the board now.
This past week, we've undertaken with PCO discussions on how to appoint the seventh board member. We have also, over the last four months, redeveloped the matrix of needs for the board and identified precisely where we would like this particular individual to fill the needs of the board.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, everyone, for your attendance today. They were good questions. We appreciate your quick, timely response to the recommendations of the Auditor General.
It's quite the thing when we call a committee meeting and, before we get here, the real report is that you've already addressed and pretty well accomplished all the recommendations. We commend you on that, and we wish you all the best as you continue to meet those recommendations fully.
Again, thank you for your attendance today.
Thank you, committee.
The meeting is adjourned.