Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 27th, 2020

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

We're going to move over to Mr. Sorbara.

Sir, you're going to finish this second round, and then we'll go on to the third round. You have five minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

This is the first time I've been able to interject and speak on this committee. It's a new committee for me, after I was on the finance committee in the prior session of Parliament for the full duration.

It is, for me, an interesting committee, because you look at the way government operates and how government finances are set. We have a budget that comes out on an annual basis with some updates that occur when necessary, usually in a fall economic update. Then you have the estimates, which are basically government spending money or implementing policy from the budget and budget legislation. Then you have—to my understanding—the Auditor General, who looks at the programs that the government operates and comes back and provides valuable information to parliamentarians, and not only to parliamentarians but also to Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

I thank you for your work and for looking at programs that government delivers in various ways to Canadians and the departments that fall under the government purview.

You mentioned an independent funding mechanism, which has been requested, and you can clarify my remarks if I've strayed off. Is that the case in other jurisdictions? Is there an independent funding mechanism in place where there is an auditor general or a comptroller—if I can use that term—in other jurisdictions? Is that in place in other areas?

[Andrew Hayes]

I can answer that.

There are other jurisdictions, commonwealth jurisdictions and provincial jurisdictions, in which the Auditor General does have a measure of independent funding mechanism. It can involve the participation of a parliamentary committee, such as this one, or there can be other models that achieve that independence.

We have started the discussions with PCO about possibilities. Legislation is not the only way to solve this funding mechanism, but there are examples out there.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

There are examples of the independent funding mechanism in place. I think that would alleviate, in my humble estimation, the need to come back to Parliament on a yearly basis for the funds necessary to do the work that is so valuable to parliamentarians and to all Canadians.

Second, you mentioned that you would be coming forward with three AG reports in the next few weeks. Can you restate those? I wrote them down quickly, and I may not have gotten them fully.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Thank you for offering me a chance to say it without hesitation: They will be about supplying the Canadian Armed Forces, student financial assistance, and immigration removals.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

The full work plan… Can I clarify? Do you work on a calendar year or on a fiscal year on your work plan?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it. How we manage it is on a fiscal year, to align with the plan and the result report we have to submit, but those audits take anywhere between 12 months for a smaller audit and 18 months. They go beyond any fiscal year or calendar year in any case, depending on when the audit starts.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I'm trying to make sure I put my feet on sure ground.

In terms of your work plan for the year, it's a set work plan. You select what you would like to analyze, and obviously there are requests from Parliament. One such request was the opposition motion that came through to look at the infrastructure plan. Am I understanding that correctly?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Yes, I guess so. I will maybe add this. As I mentioned earlier, we have an overall budget. We translate that into staff—individuals, people. That allows us to then deliver the mandatory work. Then, as I mentioned earlier, we can put the rest of the effort on the performance audits. Given the reality of the last few years, we have had to reduce the performance audits.

That's basically, in a very simplistic way, how we establish the capacity we have for the performance audits. We start from the budget, translate that into people hours, assign that to mandatory work, and the rest of it is for our performance audits.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Again, I'd like to use my first few minutes here on this committee.

Regarding the 25 audits that you mentioned in your remarks, are those performance audits?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Yes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Now you've taken that down to.... I believe the number was 14.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Yes, it was 14, and maybe I can just clarify something here.

That includes three audits for the territories. Those are part of the 14, and they include the commissioner's reports as well. I have a breakdown if you need it, but maybe that is sufficient for what you are looking for.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Is that a direct consequence...?

Do you know how much time I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You're over time. Thanks for asking; that's perfect.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I just want to follow up on that.

Is that a direct consequence of the lapse in funding or the $10.8 million not being available?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Yes, ultimately it's the result of funding pressure, which forces us to make some choices.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, Mr. Sorbara.

We're going to move over to the Bloc.

Maxime, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I want to go back to the Phoenix pay system. That troubles me a lot. I've heard a lot of dramatic testimony.

I'm new here, as are the members of the new Bloc Québécois. My colleagues were not able to attend the meetings of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. My colleagues may be uncomfortable about this. The Conservatives had implemented the Phoenix payroll system, and then the Liberals went ahead with it.

At the end of the day, we may have a scandalous fiasco, like the old gun registry or the sponsorship scandal. Are my fears justified?

[Sylvain Ricard]

I cannot comment beyond what has already been published by the former Auditor General. The picture has been painted. It's obvious that there were significant issues that needed to be addressed.

Earlier, I mentioned that, every year, during audits of the government's financial statements, we also take stock of Phoenix. The report that was issued before the holidays indicates that the problems were repeated in the last financial audit.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

If you cannot comment, can you testify to your level of concern about the Phoenix payroll system?

[Sylvain Ricard]

I will make life easier for myself and use the words of the former Auditor General, who spoke of "incomprehensible failure".

This would not have happened if good controls had been put in place and if there had been good discussions. Once again, during last summer's audits of the financial statements, we were able to see that the problems were still there.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask a question about special examinations. In your submission, it is clearly stated that an audit of each parent Crown corporation is done at least once every 10 years.

I'd like to know when the last special examinations were done. For which parent Crown corporations?

[Sylvain Ricard]

I don't remember if I mentioned it earlier. I'll give you the list of examinations. These special examinations are given to the boards of directors, who must make them public and give them to the minister.

Once the special examinations have been tabled and made public, we attach them to our reports. For example, in March, we will be attaching three, if memory serves. These are things that have already been done, that have already been made public. To make it easier, we bring them here through this mechanism. All that to say that last May, four were published.

[Karen Hogan, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

We've filed four reports. In fact, we didn't table them; the Crown corporations make them public and then we table them to facilitate the work of the committee, as Mr. Ricard mentioned.

Last year, reports from Canada Post, the Canada Science and Technology Museum, Marine Atlantic, and the Business Development Bank of Canada were tabled.

We set a schedule to ensure that we evaluate all Crown corporations once every 10 years. So we file three to five reviews per year.