Public Accounts Committee on Jan. 28th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I will call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 15 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

I know we have some guests here today, subbing in for their colleagues, so welcome to our committee.

The committee is meeting today in public to study “Report 1—Respect in the Workplace” of the 2019 Fall Report of the Auditor General of Canada. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. The webinar format is for public committee meetings and is available only to members and their staff. All functionalities for active participants remain the same. Staff will be non-active participants only and can, therefore, only view the meeting in the gallery view.

I'd just like to remind members and advise our witnesses of a few rules to follow.

Before I do, I would just ask you, Madam Clerk, if there is anybody in the room.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Angela Crandall]

No, all the members are participating via Zoom today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you.

For all of you, interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of “floor”, “English” or “French”. Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your own mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference. Also, when speaking, please speak slowly and clearly to assist our interpreters with the interpretation. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of a headset with a boom is mandatory for everyone participating. As always, should any technical challenges arise, please advise me. Please note that we may need to at that time suspend, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Before I welcome our witnesses today, I would like to advise you that I've been informed that the deputy minister for Public Services and Procurement Canada is not available for our meeting next Tuesday. Therefore, we have rescheduled things on the calendar, and I am proposing that we study some draft reports that are ready for us. If you do have any questions, please save them for the last five minutes. We'll make sure to suspend the meeting and move into that time to answer any questions for you.

Now I'd like to welcome our witnesses. Joining us today from the Office of the Auditor General are Martin Dompierre, assistant auditor general; and Susan Gomez, principal. From the Canada Border Services Agency, I would like to welcome John Ossowski, president; and Louise Youdale, vice-president, human resources branch. We also have the commissioner of Correctional Service Canada, Anne Kelly; and Nick Fabiano, assistant commissioner, human resource management sector.

Mr. Dompierre, I am going to turn to you to begin. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Martin Dompierre, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on respect in the workplace, which was tabled in Parliament in February 2020. Joining me today is Susan Gomez, who led the audit team.

The Canada Border Services Agency and Correctional Service Canada, like all federal employers, are required to provide their employees with respectful workplaces that are free of harassment, discrimination, and violence by co-workers and supervisors.

This is important because the well-being of employees suffers when the workplace is unhealthy. In addition, employees are less likely to report concerns if they perceive that their employer does not take them seriously. Issues that are not reported cannot be resolved and may affect employees’ health. The additional pressures of the current pandemic on employees make it especially important that employers provide healthy workplaces.

In this audit, we found that the Canada Border Services Agency and Correctional Service Canada did not do enough to promote and maintain respectful workplaces.

Our audit report included the results of a survey we conducted with the employees of these two federal organizations. The results showed that the employees who responded to the survey had concerns about respect in their workplaces. More than one-third of survey respondents stated that they feared reprisal if they made complaints of workplace harassment, discrimination or violence. They also had serious or significant concerns about organizational culture and about the lack of civility and respect in their workplaces.

Although both organizations knew that there were problems of harassment, discrimination and violence in the workplace, neither had developed a comprehensive strategy to address them, including a way to measure and report on their progress towards reducing harassment, discrimination and workplace violence.

Federal employers are encouraged to offer informal mechanisms such as meetings between individual employees and mediation for resolving complaints to help restore working relationships more quickly. We found that in the harassment and workplace violence complaints we reviewed, both organizations did not always tell employees that they could use informal processes.

In addition, we found that the organizations did not always do an initial assessment before deciding whether to accept or dismiss a complaint. The lack of initial assessments can lead to inconsistencies in the decision-making process and in the treatment of complaints.

Finally, we found that in the majority of the harassment complaint cases that had been investigated and resolved, the organizations had ordered restorative actions aimed only at individuals involved. In other words, the restorative actions were not aimed at establishing or re-establishing a harmonious working relationship within the affected team, group or unit. This is important because the behaviours leading to these complaints can have a long-lasting and broad impact on relationships in the workplace.

Canada Border Services Agency and Correctional Service Canada agreed with all our recommendations and have prepared action plans to address them.

Madam Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

We will now go to Mr. Ossowski for his presentation.

[John Ossowski, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the public accounts committee. It's a pleasure to be here today.

I am joined by Louise Youdale, the vice-president of our human resources branch.

Thank you having invited me to take part in today's discussion.

It's my pleasure to appear before you today to share details on the efforts we have taken to effect positive change in the culture of the CBSA.

I would like to thank the Office of the Auditor General for their work on this report. I welcome the findings and recommendations that they have put forward.

Let me be clear, the CBSA has zero tolerance for harassment, discrimination or violence in our organization.

The Auditor General's report laid bare some of the issues we have at the CBSA in the areas of workplace violence and harassment. When the report was tabled, I openly acknowledged those gaps, including how long it takes for the issues to be investigated and resolved.

Over the past few years we have done a tremendous amount of work to change the culture of our organization, focus on people, and address workplace violence and harassment. We acknowledge that systemic racism, intolerance and discrimination exist, and we are committed to doing the continued work needed to build a more diverse, inclusive and respectful culture.

Several initiatives have been undertaken to understand and further explore root causes of harassment, and to identify the concrete actions needed to create a healthier workplace culture, provide protection to employees and address their concerns.

We created a centre of expertise to educate on, prevent and manage harassment complaints. It's a one-stop shop that any employee can turn to for information, support and guidance in matters related to harassment or any type of conflict in the workplace.

We've also invested in a dedicated team of experts to develop and help implement a comprehensive strategy on culture to get to the root causes behind these unfortunate incidents and to ensure that we build a healthy and vibrant organizational culture.

We are also focused on selecting and developing managers who demonstrate people skills: respect for all, empathy, courage and emotional intelligence. Skills in conflict resolution are also important. These all contribute to creating a psychologically healthier workplace.

I also want to confirm that our disclosure process for complaints made to our senior officer of internal disclosure is confidential. There are many ways for employees to bring forward their concerns. Any issue can be reported to our senior officer for internal disclosure or to an immediate supervisor. Employees can also take their concerns directly to the office of the Public Service Integrity Commissioner. What's more, if an employee feels targeted because of an incident or an issue they have reported, that employee can make a complaint to the Public Service Integrity Commissioner.

As I said, I am encouraged that our efforts have started to show some positive results, yet there is still a lot more work ahead of us to build on recent indicators in the past. For example, our average positive response to all questions in the 2019 public service employee survey increased by more than four percentage points. We also saw a 3% decrease in the number of cases of harassment reported.

Madam Chair, the Auditor General's report identified ways to address the challenges we have in regard to respect in the workplace. Rest assured we are acting on the recommendations put forward by putting our people first and reinforcing respect, dignity and fairness.

I would be happy to answer any questions from members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Ms. Kelly for five minutes.

[Anne Kelly, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Thank you.

Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. With me today is Nick Fabiano, my assistant commissioner of human resources.

Respect and a healthy workplace are a key priority for me, as commissioner. This needs to be at the heart of everything we do.

An organization is nothing without its people. Our 18,000 employees are our greatest assets in successfully carrying out our work. They are hard-working, professional and passionate about making a difference in the lives of offenders and ensuring public safety.

Correctional work can be challenging and stressful and the well-being of our staff is essential. Harassment, discrimination or violence have no place in the Correctional Service of Canada.

We recognize the importance of the Auditor General’s findings last year, and I want to assure this committee that we have been taking it very seriously and are taking concrete actions.

Culture change does not happen overnight. We have been continuing to work at sustaining the changes that have been made to ensure that they will become embedded in our culture.

The pandemic has helped to reinforce the importance of making our health, safety and well-being a top priority in all of our workplaces. This is especially topical as we take part in a national dialogue on mental health today during Bell Let’s Talk. Every action counts.

Since the completion of the Auditor General’s report, we have worked to strengthen our ability to maintain healthy workplaces in several ways.

In response to the AG's recommendations, we have reviewed guidelines and tools on harassment and workplace violence, as well as worked to ensure that employees at all levels of the organization are aware of these resources.

A new workplace harassment and violence prevention policy is now in place, together with procedures to respond to incidents of harassment and violence.

Understanding that change requires constant communication, town halls on respect and mental health were conducted with staff on several occasions this year. Some were held as part of Correctional Service Canada Respect Day in November 2020. I have led several town halls myself with our senior leaders.

We have already begun to see changes based on these initiatives. The results of the 2019 Public Service Employee Survey showed that the rates of reported harassment and discrimination had dropped for a second year in a row.

The survey also showed that there was an increase in the number of respondents that felt that the department is working hard to create a workplace that prevents harassment and discrimination.

While this decrease is a step in the right direction, we know there is more work to do and are working to ensure that respectful behaviour is embedded in our culture.

In March 2019, we released our first annual workplace climate and employee well-being report. This report helps us to monitor the health of our organization and plan for the year ahead. The second report will be released within the next couple of months.

Last fall, we launched the national comprehensive strategy on workplace wellness and employee well-being. This strategy serves as CSC's foundation for prioritizing activities that are essential to the respect, well-being and mental health of employees and managers at all levels.

We are now in our third year of the respectful workplace campaign. This campaign involves various initiatives including awareness, promotion and developing avenues for employees to disclose inappropriate behaviour.

Lastly, we have also begun planning an audit of CSC's culture. The goal of the audit is to identify ways to make CSC a safer, healthier, more respectful and violence-free environment for all employees and offenders.

While we know that we have more work to do, we are seeing progress.

I would like to conclude by using a sentence from an article that Dr. Robert Cormier, a psychologist and former executive, shared with me a couple of years ago. It says, “It is essential to recognize that a respectful workplace is not an end point; it is a way of doing things moment by moment, day by day, rather than a discrete project to complete.”

I agree, and day by day, CSC is building a culture where we all lead by example and inspire one another to carry out our important mission and achieve positive correctional outcomes.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much to all of you for your opening statements.

We will now go to our first round of questioning, which is six minutes, and we will start with Mr. Webber.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you, Madame Chair; and thank you to our witnesses who are here today.

I will start my questioning with Mr. Dompierre and Ms. Gomez of the Auditor General's department.

First, why did you choose to do an audit on the Canada Border Services Agency and the Correctional Service of Canada; why those two organizations?

[Martin Dompierre]

As we conducted this audit, we looked at past survey work that has been done in the public service. As indicated in the report, since 2008, questions around harassment, discrimination and workplace violence have been included.

Also, based on reports that were produced by the Privy Council Office, the reports stressed the importance of creating a workplace free of harassment, discrimination and workplace violence.

We had also seen events happening in the news related specifically to one organization in particular—in this case, in 2016 and 2017, about an allegation at Correctional Service of Canada.

Basically, those were the main reasons we initiated our work around the Canada Border Services Agency and the Correctional Service of Canada.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

You mentioned in your audit report, in section 1.13, that the CBSA and the CSC knew that their workplaces had problems with harassment, discrimination and violence. Both undertook some activities to address these problems, and it's apparent here today from their testimony that they obviously have made an effort to address some of these problems. However, in your report you mentioned that neither had a strategy based on risk to address these issues, and also that there were no performance measurement frameworks to help the organization measure and report on progress toward reducing harassment, discrimination and workplace violence.

What organizations, then, would you recommend that the CBSA and the CSC look to as a model to follow? Have you done audits with other departments, agencies or Crown corporations in order to find a model that you would recommend that the CBSA and the CSC look at?

[Martin Dompierre]

We did not look at other organizations in the context of this audit.

As you said, we focused mainly on these two organizations. As you specified, we did not see a comprehensive strategy put in place by either organization that would help them identify the risk, prioritize the objectives and measure results.

Unfortunately, we did not do any specific comparison with other organizations as part of this audit.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Okay, so I guess then you really couldn't say what other department, agency or Crown corporation holds that gold standard for workplace harassment, discrimination and workplace violence policy and actually for implementing these policies, and following these workplace harassment, discrimination and workplace violence policies.

You can't really give a recommendation, then, obviously, because you haven't done any other audits than these two. Is that correct?

[Martin Dompierre]

That is correct. What I would say, just to conclude, is that as it is an obligation for all federal organizations to implement such measures, I believe there are definitely some good examples that could be identified in the public service, but unfortunately we have not looked at that during this audit.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Okay.

There were no audits in your department either, I would imagine, of the Office of the Auditor General.

[Martin Dompierre]

Not yet. There's not an audit in the OAG of that nature.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

But it's a great environment in the Auditor General's office, I am sure.

[Martin Dompierre]

Yes, indeed.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

In paragraph 1.15, Mr. Dompierre, you mentioned that you performed a file review of formal complaints with both the CBSA and the CSC. On the basis of that review, you “found that the organizations did not handle formal harassment, discrimination, and workplace violence complaints consistently. When employees filed complaints, the organizations did not always tell employees about informal mechanisms for resolving their complaints or assess the complaints before deciding whether to accept or dismiss them.”

Of course, employees would not be happy with how their complaints were handled or with the outcomes in some cases. I know of some organizations where complaints do drag on and remain as ongoing files for a long time.

How long does it take, on average, for each of these organizations, the CBSA and CSC, to open, investigate and conclude such complaints?

[Martin Dompierre]

It's very difficult to determine the exact sort of timeline for a specific complaint. As you saw in the report, there are numerous ways someone could file a complaint. It could go from a harassment, a grievance or a workplace violence complaint. As we did the audit, it was difficult for the OAG to compare cases. Each case was very unique. If we want to make sure that natural justice takes place and fairness procedures also take place, we find it is difficult to say it should take a year, it should take six months.

I think the example I can give is that in some situations a complainant could be on a leave of absence. In that case, the investigation would not be started as quickly as desired. It is somewhat challenging to identify specific timelines around such complaints. That's why in the report we were not in a position to make any observations on those.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much.

We will go on to Ms. Yip.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Good morning. Welcome back to the committee. I wish a belated happy new year to you all.

Sadly, harassment and discrimination in the workplace still occur. I'm thankful that we're having this discussion this morning. Every Canadian deserves to feel safe at work. They shouldn't feel afraid to come to work because of mistreatment by their co-workers or managers. I hope there will be some definite improvements.

My first question is in regard to the survey results on harassment questions between 2005 and 2017. In both instances, the CSC and CBSA have almost doubled the percentages. I'm just wondering why that is for victims of harassment on the job as well as by co-workers, and for victims of harassment by individuals with authority over them.

Why does this pattern continue? Is it because of the nature of the work?

Please go ahead, Ms. Kelly or Mr. Ossowski.

[Anne Kelly]

Maybe I can start.

There's no question that correctional work is very challenging. Certainly our front-line staff are exposed to traumatic events. Obviously, they sometimes respond to situations such as overdoses, self-harming behaviour, potential suicide attempts. It's really difficult.

In terms of our results on the public service employee survey, we actually saw in the 2019 results that there's been a 6% decrease in respondents indicating that they have been victims of harassment. There's also been an increase in the percentage of those who are satisfied with the quality of supervision as well as an increase in those who are satisfied with how interpersonal issues are resolved.

We're seeing some positive results with the initiatives that we've put in place, but we understand that certainly there is more work to do. I agree with you—employees need to feel valued. I've been with the Correctional Service for 37 years. I love my job. I love coming to work. This is what I want for every employee.

The other statistic I'll mention is that in the public service employee survey we found that 84% of our staff actually are proud of the work they do, which is significant.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Ossowski, you acknowledged that systemic racism, intolerance and discrimination exist. Can you share with us any strategies that address the concerns of women and people of colour?