Public Accounts Committee on Jan. 28th, 2021

[John Ossowski]

Certainly there's 360 upward feedback, as well. There's also something called the "skip level meeting". You go past your immediate supervisor and have a chat with the person above the supervisor, so you don't have that filter necessarily in the way. We have all those tools in place.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That's good to hear.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you, Mr. Longfield.

We're now going to a six-minute round of questioning.

We will go to Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to start with you again, Mr. Ossowski, as it is Bell Let's Talk day.

Just say that any of your employees are watching and they're feeling harassed or discriminated against. What would you say to them and what would you have them do right here, right now?

[John Ossowski]

I would say, speak up. If you're not feeling well, let's talk about it. If it's something we can't help you with then there are resources we can point you to to help you. I think that's something where, throughout the pandemic, we've really doubled down on, keeping in touch with people because we're often working from home. I'm in the office most days myself, but I'm often working from home, and you have to double down on those efforts to reach out and check in on people and see how they're doing.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Ms. Kelly, can I give you the same opportunity?

[Anne Kelly]

Thank you.

I'd say the same thing. Speak up and also, I think that sometimes there are bystanders. If people see misconduct, they also have a responsibility to speak up as well so we can address the problems in the organization and make it a safe and healthier workplace.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

This is an open question, including to the Auditor General.

I am not familiar with what the target range should be. I would assume perhaps zero—obviously that's where we'd all want to be—but maybe it's not realistic.

When we look at the survey numbers, what are the top organizations doing? To Mr. Ossowski and Ms. Kelly, what's your target for that survey? Do you want it to read 5% or 0% and when do you want to read that by?

[John Ossowski]

Absolutely the goal of zero would be great. I think that's a little unrealistic because you've got new employees who come into the workforce; it's their first workforce environment; they don't want to rock the boat so they follow along. The culture is so important. What is that culture they're coming into as a shiny new officer and how will they respond to it? Creating that right culture is the first effort.

I don't know that I'm looking at a numerical result—obviously I'd like zero—but I think that the culture piece and seeing how people respond to those changes and feel welcomed and supported is what I want to hear back from my staff.

[Anne Kelly]

It's the same with me. I'd like to see a zero.

Again, we're working really hard. One component is creating a safe space where people feel that they can speak up, that they are going to be listened to, that their issues are going to be taken seriously and are going to be looked at. The other thing is increasing the trust. I think we really need some trust between employees and managers, employees and senior managers. I think that's very important. That's why we're doing an audit of the CSC culture. That idea came to me when I read that in Ireland the police force embarked on an audit of the culture of their police force. It sounded really interesting. My audit team is looking at that for CSC.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Once again, I'll go to both Ms. Kelly and Mr. Ossowski on this.

It's an axiom of business and of management that what gets measured gets improved. In your personal evaluations, is the number of harassment claims, the number of discrimination claims, included in your annual evaluations?

[Anne Kelly]

Maybe I can start.

Yes, it is. For example, in 2019-20, we had 50 fewer harassment complaints than the previous year. For discrimination—these are the ones before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal—it's remained fairly consistent over the last three fiscal years. For workplace violence, it's been a steady decrease in the last three fiscal years. We went from 45 to 22. It's definitely something that we monitor.

[John Ossowski]

It's the same with us. The net new has dropped from last year. It has gone from 66 to 35.

On the point that was raised about fear of reprisal, I would just say that if the numbers go up, then there's obviously a concern there that the informal mechanisms didn't work. At least we're dealing with them. I think having those actions in place to actually deal with them is what I'm more focused on than how the numbers might be fluctuating. Obviously, I want to see a trend line going down, but I'm more focused on a performance measure in terms of all of the parts of the process and how they are working.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

In the spirit of congeniality, I will concede my remaining time to the next speaker.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much. You had 30 seconds remaining.

We will move to Mr. Fergus for six minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank Mr. Lawrence For having given me his remaining 30 seconds. This means that I should be allowed six and a half minutes.

And thanks to my colleagues for having asked such incisive questions.

I am an MP, but I also have the privilege of being a member of the Parliamentary Black Caucus. Our witnesses will understand why I'll be asking questions about discrimination within their ranks.

My first comment is for the Office of the Auditor General. I think there is a consensus that when we carry out studies in future on these issues, everything possible should be done to disaggregate the data. It's very important to identify existing problems, such as those of concern to racialized women and women in groups affected by employment equity in the public service. In future, it will be very important to ask these questions beforehand and not simply react afterwards.

My question is for Mr. Ossowski and Ms. Kelly.

In response to a question—I no longer remember who asked it—you said that most cases of discrimination were between employees and did not necessarily involve management. However, the Auditor General's report concluded as follows:

...we found that ...the organizations had ordered restorative actions aimed only at the individuals involved. In other words, the restorative actions were not aimed at establishing or re-establishing a harmonious working relationship within the affected team, group, or unit. This is important because the behaviours leading to these complaints can have a long lasting and broad impact on relationships in the workplace.

I agree completely with this conclusion.

Do you think that it's important to have the context? It's not a dispute between two employees. When something happens, Treasury Board regulations need to be complied with and a broader intervention is required in the unit where the cases of discrimination have been occurring.

[John Ossowski]

Just to be clear, when I was referring to employee versus employee as the majority of the cases, I was referring to harassment cases. A full 53% of harassment complaints are employee versus employee. That's what I was referring to.

With respect to discrimination—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's not quite the same thing. We need to pay attention to the current culture in a setting, and not only interactions between two people. If someone feels free to harass others or discriminate against them, it's because the culture allows it.

[John Ossowski]

I absolutely agree with you, and I would just say that when we look at the breakdown of the types of harassment, discrimination is probably one of the lowest factors. It's more like unfair treatment, humiliation, bullying and offensive remarks. Those all speak to the culture that we're trying to unpack and make more healthy. As I say, I'm taking off the band-aid, and we're going to talk about it.

I think it's really important that you understand from my perspective that no one's satisfied with this culture. I think that's the key about changing it. If we're not satisfied with it, then we have to take responsibility for it. It's our culture. It's not somebody else's survey results. These are our survey results. Nobody likes it? Okay, what are we going to do about it? That's the conversation that we have to have over and over again, in addition to the training and the tools so that people can have better soft skills and abilities to have those tough conversations and intervene in those situations. That's the collective responsibility that I spoke about. Absolutely, the culture is the key here, but culture's very hard to measure. It's hard to put a data point on it, and that's why I'm focusing on these conversations.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Kelly, in this report, there are some devastating and appalling conclusions.

I would like you and Mr. Ossowski to tell us whether, when you found these problems, you took action not only to discuss them with the employees, but to go over what had happened before and determine whether the complaints that had been filed deserved to be reviewed or reconsidered.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I'm sorry, Mr. Fergus. We have run out of time. We are at six and a half minutes.

Perhaps we could have the witness follow up with a written response to your question.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I yield to you, Madam Chair. It's unfortunate, because I would have liked to have an answer to this question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I do understand that, and we did give you the time that was given to you by one of your colleagues. Perhaps you will have the opportunity to follow up in another round or we could request that answer in writing.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You're on mute, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you.

We will now move on to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, for six minutes.