Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2020

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

If I could leave that question just for a moment, I will go to our next member who would like to speak to the motion, Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I will be really quick. I am in agreement with MP Sorbara in the spirit of non-partisanship.

I don't want to lose any time. I'm anxious to dig in. I'm willing to do training. I know that some committees have been extending some time to do a little non-partisan fun. I've heard some great soliloquies from both MP Sorbara and MP Fergus, so perhaps we could extend this one so we could have additional time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Mr. Longfield is next.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Francesco and Luc both hit the points I had, thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

That's great.

Last, we have Mr. Webber and then Mr. Green.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Madam Chair, my questions are for the presenters, so I cannot comment on this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Okay.

Mr. Green, do you have the wording of a motion available for us?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I do, yes. Just to reiterate in a very simple way, it is “That we bring the witnesses back at our first available opportunity to have workshops provided by them on questions and on reading of the documents.”

This gives the clerk discretion to work with the comments as presented by my colleagues.

I believe they already have that listed in the package here, but I'd like if I could to speak on it for a moment.

If I recall, they provided us with a package that had some really solid tools, cards even, that we could take to other committees. I know that if I shared it with my colleagues in a non-selfish way, they would have it for other committees as well.

I think “at our first available opportunity” provides a way for us to account for all the concerns that have been expressed today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Has that provided enough information for us to vote on the motion?

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

I will quickly go back to Mr. Sorbara, who had a question for the presenters, and then, Mr. Webber, you did as well.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

To the presenters, do you mean to repeat the question in terms of brevity, or are you good to answer?

[Carol Bellringer]

I'm good, and I'll repeat my understanding of what you are asking.

In terms of what the audit report will give you and how the audit is designed, it is, in effect, both the things you asked. Is it looking at the program or is it looking at the outcome? That depends, which is why it is really important to read what the audit objectives were in the report. It will outline for you what was looked at.

I'm going to give you a provincial example so that we don't step on anyone's toes federally.

We did an audit in B.C. on grizzly bears. There was an immediate remark that we were looking at whether or not there should be a hunt. Actually, what we did was a comprehensive review of the natural resources ministry on how effectively they were managing the population of grizzly bears as an indicator of biodiversity in the province.

It really depends on how you design it. You can set out to look simply at whether or not the outcomes of the program are being achieved, but the auditor is not doing the direct work to determine those things; the auditor is looking at the people in charge of the program to see that they are doing so. The auditors wouldn't look for the outcome; they would look to see whether or not the ministry is doing that.

I think it is a good area for us to get into in more depth by doing another session on reading the report and looking at what the objectives are. That's an excellent line of questioning for you to direct to your Auditor General as well if you are meeting with her, because she can tell you a little more about her kinds of audits. She has quite a few on her list currently.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Webber is next.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Lesley and Carol, for being here today. They were great presentations.

Dr. Burns, in your presentation you talked about cross-party collaboration, and on slide 30 you bring up partisan behaviour. Just for some clarification regarding choosing favourable ministries or departments or departmental officials, what is the process for choosing ministries and departments and departmental officials?

Can you clarify that, please?

[Lesley Burns]

Absolutely.

Every jurisdiction has a slightly different process for choosing not only the audit reports but also who comes to the committee. In good practice, it is most appropriate to choose the most relevant senior official. That is the deputy minister, because they are the accounting officer. Mr. Murphy, who will be speaking next, was actually chair when that became the formal process for choosing people. I'm not sure of the technical term for it.

That's always the ideal person. They are the ideal people because they are the ones with the responsibility of administering that department or organization. The more advance information you can give to a department that's coming about what you want to hear from them, the better. Then the deputy minister can have the appropriate supporting people available to be able to give you the answers you're looking for.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Very quickly, Madam Chair, regarding choosing the ministries, who decides that? Is it this committee that decides, or is it the Auditor General after completing an audit, after which it would come to public accounts?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Are you asking me that question?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

I guess on the process I would ask Dr. Burns.

[Lesley Burns]

The process for the federal committee, as I understand it, is that you will choose from among the audit reports. It's my understanding that each party will choose the ones they see as being the most relevant. You can do that in consultation with the Auditor General, who typically won't ever want to pick favourites on an audit.

You'll also look to your analysts, because they're tracking outstanding recommendations and what the action plan submitted by the department says. After an audit is complete, the analysts will reach out to the department on behalf of the committee and ask for an action plan, which addresses how that audited entity will be implementing the recommendations in the audit report. That information will be shared with you so that you'll have insight into there are recommendations still outstanding or where any concerns might lie.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Burns.

I'd like to thank you both for joining us today. It has been very interesting. I imagine we will be getting to know you a little better along the way, for those of us who are new to this committee.

We are running a little behind time, so I will suspend the meeting and invite our witnesses to take their leave, although I understand that Ms. Bellringer will be staying with us.

Thank you again. We will suspend for now and do some sound checks for the witnesses who are joining us in the next hour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I will call the meeting to order. I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

I will make a few comments just for your benefit. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Otherwise, we would ask you stay muted. I would remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Interpretation in this video conference will work very much as it does in a regular meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “Floor”, “English” or “French”. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly, and when you're not speaking, as I mentioned, you should mute your mike.

I would now like to turn to our witnesses and welcome them here today.

It's good to see all of you. Mr. Allison, Mr. Christopherson, Mr. Murphy and Mr. Sorenson, thank you so much for joining us today. The clerk advised me that this would be a fairly fluid meeting, so when you were visiting with one another, I thought, “This is really fluid.”

We'll start with some opening statements, if that's all right. We could go in alphabetical order if you'd like. We would like to be able to have a conversation with you, but we'd love to hear what you have to share with us as well.

We will start with Mr. Allison.

[Dean Allison, Former Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just as it was in school, I get to go first because of my last name.

I'm going to keep my comments short. Certainly I appreciated the opportunity, although short, to chair the public accounts committee. I thought I'd come today because I really have a great deal of respect for all of the previous chairs we have here. I have had a chance to work with Mr. Murphy, Mr. Sorenson and certainly Mr. Christopherson. David and I actually sat on the committee in 2004 together.

I believe, David, that we did, didn't we, when we both showed up in Parliament?

I just want to reiterate what they're going to say, and I'm going to spend less time doing it only because they've spent more time with the committee and have had a chance to work longer.

The public accounts committee has a great reputation—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. We do not have interpretation.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

There is a problem with the interpretation. It hasn't been working since Mr. Allison started speaking.

Is it possible to ask our friends the technicians to look into it?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Pardon me, Madam Chair; you have no interpretation there. Is that what was discussed, the interpretation?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Webber.

Okay, Mr. Allison, could you start again?