Public Accounts Committee on May 4th, 2021

[Martin Dompierre]

That is my understanding as well, Madam Chair. The agent would need to do some further analysis in terms of the chronology of events when the parents were sharing that custody, or if it was one parent who had the sole responsibility of the child.

That question would maybe be better directed to the agency in terms of those specifics.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Fabulous—

[Bob Hamilton]

I was just going to respond, Madam Chair, to that question, but I think I would turn to my colleagues for the very specific rules in that case.

As a general comment, in administering this program we have to recognize some of the complexities in the relationships and in the changes that happen. As you say, somebody could leave the country. Although we don't have statistics on how much we can get back there, I think it's fair to say that it doesn't increase our chances of recouping that money.

Similarly, in the situation of a breakup, it can often be the case that the two parties don't agree. That could be more complex for us to work our way through, but we do try to work our way through it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much.

We will now move on to Mr. Sorbara for five minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and good morning, everyone.

I have a quick question for the CRA officials about page 4 of the Auditor General's report. Can you just explain the difference between automated benefit applications and benefits online applications very quickly and simply, please?

[Bob Hamilton]

You probably have your best chance of getting a simple answer from me, so I'll start, Madam Chair.

For the automated benefit application, which Mr. Vermaeten referred to earlier, we automatically register at birth. That applies in all provinces and one territory.

An online application is done through My Account or on the website. That would be the difference between the two. One is automatic at birth, and for the the other, you apply. Some people call it automatic, but you have to go through a web source.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Moving on from that, but related to that, is the number of mail-in applications for the last period. As you know, I'm a big proponent of digitization. The number of mail-in applications is still 154,000 for the last reported period for the fiscal year 2019-20.

How can the CRA, working with all government departments.... We're working on the unique single identifier number with ESDC. That's in the budget, and we've talked about it at committee here. There's e-payroll and there's a pilot project on that. How can we get these mail-in applications to either be moved to online applications or be done automatically?

For example, the Canada workers benefit is an online benefit—sort of in a different respect—that's automatically done when you file your taxes. How do we get these mail-in applications online digitally? I can go to my CRA account and log in, and there's my CCB or my unique identifier number. How can we get these eliminated and moved online?

[Bob Hamilton]

That is a tremendous preoccupation for us at the agency.

To be fair, we've had a lot of success in this, in that we have over 90% of tax filings submitted electronically. From our perspective, we're trying to do everything we can to make it as simple as possible for people to do it electronically.

One of the issues we have to recognize is that some people are just not comfortable doing it electronically. They like paper. We also have to pay attention to them, because we don't want to leave anybody behind. However, we are taking more of an incentive approach rather than mandating it. For example, we're trying to make it as attractive as possible for people. We're going piece by piece through the agency to look for areas where we can improve on that front, because it is going to be important for the future and much more efficient, with fewer errors.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Absolutely.

I'd prefer having those hard-working call centre agents, whom I met when I was in Winnipeg as the parliamentary secretary and saw what they were doing, helping folks more directly in terms of front-counter service, if I can use that term, rather than just processing the mail-in applications, which they do in a very efficient manner.

Lastly, relating to that, we know that more than about 12% of Canadians do not file their taxes. In Ontario, the number I've seen is around 15%. They tend to be our most vulnerable in society.

The only way a family or an individual with a child can collect the CCB is if they file their taxes. With the time we have, can we briefly touch upon the progress made in ensuring that eligible Canadians and family members receive the CCB?

[Bob Hamilton]

As we discussed earlier, as a component of this, we have a concern about the number of people who don't file and would be eligible for benefits. That's part of a bigger issue for us. We want to see people filing wherever possible, but it's a particular case for people who are not filing, because by not doing that, they become ineligible for the benefits.

We've had a push and talked about a few of the elements. There's obviously the community volunteer income tax program, which provides a trustful place where people can have their forms done. We do a lot of outreach all across the agency. Across the country, we have groups going out to talk to vulnerable populations and to increase awareness.

I think the final thing we need to do is make it as easy as possible for people to do it. In some cases, maybe that means simplifying a form or making our website easier to navigate.

Those are the kinds of things we're doing. As well, we're looking at newcomers to the country to make sure that they can process the information that we provide to be able to get the benefits they're entitled to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sorbara. Your time is up.

We will now move into our next round of questioning. It's a six-minute round.

Colleagues and witnesses, I would just remind you that there is a time frame. I have consistently allowed us to go over time, but in order to get that time back, I would ask that you keep your questions and your answers as succinct as possible so that we can get as many in as possible.

We will now move to Mr. Berthold for six minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you.

I join my colleagues in congratulating the Canada Revenue Agency representatives for the work they have done concerning the benefit. Like my colleague Mr. Tochor, I think this program is very effective and well-managed. So I congratulate all of the agency's representatives and officials.

Mr. Hamilton, the agency has been under attack fairly regularly for some time, so your team and you have earned that recognition.

My question is for Mr. Dompierre.

Mr. Dompierre, in the second paragraph of your opening remarks, you say, “The Canada child benefit is a key public policy tool for reducing inequalities and poverty among low–income families.” However, your report makes no comparison nor does it refer to that statement.

Can you tell us why you thought it was a good idea to mention this in your opening remarks?

[Martin Dompierre]

Thank you for the question.

In the current context, we wanted to bring up the fact that this program helped low–income families in need. We were also guided by the situation caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. We considered issues related to the temporary amount paid out as part of the measures related to this crisis. It is really in this spirit that I added that element to my presentation, as I wanted to highlight that this program was well received by Canadians, who wanted that kind of a program.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

That seems to be a political comment to me. That is why I wanted to let you know. The auditor general's comments are usually very well documented and based on specific elements.

I do not disagree with what you said, but I wanted to know why it was indicated in that way. This is literally a comment on government policy. This comment is more political than based on facts.

I am just making a quick comment, but I don't blame you for it. I also think this was an absolutely essential program. It was worth mentioning this element.

Mr. Hamilton, I wanted to talk to you about communication among departments. I saw in your action plan that you were going to put in efforts to improve that communication.

I recently received from the minister a letter about a completely different issue. I am talking about the famous issue between Service Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency concerning the Canada recovery caregiving benefit, or CRCB. For people to be able to obtain answers, data must be shared between a CRA agent and a Service Canada agent.

Don't you think it is high time for the two organization to talk to each other and find a solution to those communication and data sharing issues, since those problems have been surfacing more and more frequently?

[Bob Hamilton]

That is indeed an issue for us in general.

In the action plan, we mentioned a few changes concerning situations where it is necessary to obtain information from another department.

For example, at the Department of Immigration, it is important to have information on newcomers, as well as on people emigrating from Canada. So we exchange information with the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, but—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Do those exchanges have to be done from person to person? Can the information be obtained electronically?

[Bob Hamilton]

That's what I'm getting at. We're increasingly using an automated system in which systems specific to both departments can communicate with each other. It isn't necessary to have someone from CBSA talking to someone from the Department of Immigration.

This poses a challenge, however, since each agency and department has its own system. I hope that we'll gradually develop systems that can communicate with each other. We've already made a great deal of progress in this area, but there's still a lot to do. This is important for the future, given the largely digital economy.

We have processes, but we need to improve them and automate them more for Canadians. You're right about that.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

In your opinion, is the Treasury Board paying enough attention to this issue? Is it putting enough pressure on different departments to find a solution quickly?

[Bob Hamilton]

The Treasury Board is paying very close attention to this issue and to a number of other issues.

The Canada child benefit poses a challenge. However, I suspect that it isn't the biggest challenge facing the government.

The Treasury Board is paying attention to this issue, and we'll continue to work with the other departments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Berthold.

We will now go to Mr. Fergus for six minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to join my colleagues in congratulating the Canada Revenue Agency employees for their outstanding work in continuing to fulfill their commitments to Canada's most vulnerable families, who have received the Canada child benefit.

My questions are for Mr. Hamilton.

Mr. Hamilton, as I just said, the employees, your colleagues at the Canada Revenue Agency, have worked tirelessly since the start of the pandemic. A number of them have worked long hours from home, but they have always worked to ensure that the needs of Canadians come first. I know these people very well. As a member of Parliament for the National Capital Region, I've seen the outstanding work done by public servants, especially the people who work for the CRA.

Given the situation and the fact that more and more people are working from home, how can your department keep restructuring its processes to ensure the continuation of Canada child benefit payments or other services and programs managed by the agency?

[Bob Hamilton]

Good question.

I'm always extremely proud of the agency's employees, but I've been especially proud during the pandemic. A number of people have been working almost seven days a week throughout this period. They're increasingly working from home rather than in the office.

During the pandemic, we noticed a few times that we could have increased our efforts. However, in my opinion, this galvanized the agency. We did a good job during that time. We need to take this opportunity to find ways to do things differently in the future and become more innovative and effective.

It should be noted that we're almost finished developing a process for improving the benefit system. This system is important to the agency. Given that the federal and provincial governments have increased benefits, we've made the system better for the future. We've improved our capacity to succeed.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

By the same token, the CCB program has really proven its effectiveness. However, we know that it isn't always easy for the most vulnerable Canadians to access a computer in order to apply online.

Are there ways to simplify or automate CCB applications to truly help the most vulnerable individuals and families?

I'm straying a bit from the Auditor General's report, but this is still an important question. I want to know how you plan to make it easier to access these benefits, which are essential for people in need.

[Bob Hamilton]

As I said, the process is challenging for a certain part of the population. Even though we have a high success rate for this program, we must strive to make it more accessible to as many people as possible.

Part of the population doesn't have access to the program at this time, either because people are unfamiliar with the program or because they aren't comfortable with computers. To handle this situation, we've set up a community program with volunteers—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Sorry to interrupt you.

Do you think that the time has come to have automated systems for the tax return?