Evidence of meeting #3 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hogan.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

I'm pleased to see that everyone managed to get into the public portion of our meeting. I know that we are all dismayed by these technical difficulties that are robbing us of our time. Having said that, I will move quickly into the business of this next hour.

During the second hour of this meeting, we are meeting pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) to study the main estimates 2020-21, vote 1, under Office of the Auditor General.

During the first hour of the meeting, we had Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada; Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general and interim commissioner of the environment and sustainable development; and Kimberly Leblanc, principal. They are also joining us for this portion of the meeting.

The Auditor General has, I'm told, about an eight-minute opening statement.

Please begin.

12:20 p.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Yes, Madam Chair. If you'd like, I could try, on the fly, to cut out some paragraphs to give you some time. I think you all have a copy of the statement, so I think I'll try to do that as I progress through.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you. Go ahead.

12:20 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Madam Chair, we are pleased to have this opportunity to discuss the work of our office, including our most recent departmental reports.

With me today are Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, and Kim Leblanc, Principal of Human Resources.

The mission of the Office of the Auditor General Canada is to contribute to well-managed and accountable government for Canadians. We do this by providing Parliament and territorial legislatures with independent and objective information, advice and assurance about government financial statements and the management of government programs.

Let me turn first to our 2018-19 Departmental Results Report. We provided this report to Parliament in December 2019. As shown in our financial statements, our net operating cost was $98.6 million, and we employed the equivalent of 552 full-time employees.

With these resources, we completed a total of 21 performance audits, including six led by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development and one reported to a northern legislature. In addition, the commissioner presented the annual report on environmental petitions, and we conducted nine special examinations of Crown corporations.

In terms of our financial audit work, we issued clean opinions on 85 of the 89 financial statements of federal and territorial governments and of Crown corporations we audited. We also presented commentaries derived from our special examination and financial audit work.

In the 2018-2019 fiscal year, we appeared before 11 different parliamentary committees, for a total of 46 hearings on our audit work. Parliamentary committees can use our reports to improve government management and accountability, mainly by inviting departmental officials to explain how and when they will address our audit recommendations and by following up on progress at a later date.

In 2018, an international team led by the audit office of South Africa conducted a peer review of our office. In its 2019 report, the review team concluded that our office had adhered to relevant professional standards and that our system of quality control was suitably designed and effectively implemented. The peer review team also suggested improvements. Our action plan is available through our website.

Let me now turn to our 2020-21 departmental plan. The Office of the Auditor General of Canada is funded through various appropriations and transfers. Under vote 1 of the main estimates, our program expenditures for the 2020-21 fiscal year are set at $78 million, and we plan to employ the equivalent of 585 full-time employees.

Our departmental plan presents our three strategic objectives. We are now more than halfway through the current year. These objectives have driven our work, including the way we have responded to the COVID-19 pandemic and our funding pressures. Our office has had to adapt to COVID-19. For the most part, our employees have been working remotely since March.

For our performance audit work, we have prioritized the motions passed by the House of Commons earlier this year. In particular, we have undertaken audits of the government's investing in Canada plan and the COVID-19 response. However, because of our funding pressures, focusing on this work has meant that we have had to defer other planned audits.

Since my appointment in June, we have been working productively with the government to address our funding needs. In July, I submitted an updated funding request, and I have strong indications that our needs will be fully addressed. We are now working with officials at the Treasury Board Secretariat so that our additional permanent funding can be included in the next estimates for parliamentary approval.

To be as well prepared as possible to serve Parliament in the future, we have taken a calculated risk to start hiring in anticipation of receiving additional funding. We are monitoring our spending, and we are ready to react if needed to ensure that we will not exceed our budget.

We have also been focusing on the state of our IT environment. Like all organizations, we must invest on an ongoing basis to maintain and upgrade our systems. Our funding pressures have affected our ability to do some of this work. In the past, we have had to make difficult decisions to postpone some upgrades for our IT systems and processes that support our audits. Once we receive additional permanent funding, we will be able to act on our modernization plans.

Madam Chair, we thank the committee for its ongoing support and the use of our work. We look forward to continuing to serve you in the coming year, and we are pleased to answer your questions.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

We will now move to questions from members, starting with our six-minute round.

I believe we start with Mr. Berthold.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Hogan. Thank you for joining us today.

Obviously, the issue that comes back and has come back several times over the past few years is that of your office's funding.

In your opening remarks, you said that a number of audits had to be deferred because the funding was unavailable. I know that, since February 2016, the Office of the Auditor General has filed at least 15 requests for additional funding from the government.

You are saying that the government seems to be on the point of responding positively to your funding requests. What has changed? What funding did you request, and what are you expecting to ensure that it's right this time?

I remind you that, since 2016, 15 requests have remained without response.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Ms. Hogan, you are still muted.

12:25 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

As I mentioned, I submitted a new funding request in July.

In that request, we were asking for $25 million. Employees' social benefits and accommodation costs are not included in that amount. Therefore, the $25 million was added to our permanent funding.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

What made you believe that you would get $25 million this time? We just received supplementary estimates (B), and they don't show any increase to your budgets. The year will be nearly done by the time you get the money, and people will have already done the work.

12:30 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

The discussions I have had with senior officials in the government are very encouraging. They asked us a number of questions, which we answered, and we have provided the additional information requested. Those discussions with government senior officials lead me to believe that they have heard us and are open. Of course, I cannot say that with certainty.

They are currently looking into whether the money could be found in supplementary estimates (C). I hope that's a positive sign. Of course, government will decide on our funding.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

What audits have you been unable to carry out and had to set aside since your funding is insufficient, especially as the House of Commons has given you new mandates this year because of the pandemic?

12:30 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I have a few details for you, but I will ask Mr. Hayes to complete my answer if I forget anything.

We have had to defer a few audits, including those on cybersecurity and protecting the north. Those are the two that come to mind. We have also pushed back certain audits, which will be submitted later this year, as the moment is not ideal to do so.

Have I forgotten any, Mr. Hayes?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Apparently not.

Ms. Hogan, in closing, do you think the Office of the Auditor General can do its job for Canadians properly or is that money absolutely necessary?

12:30 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

That money is necessary for us to fulfill our mandate in the way we want to. As you said, our work is really focused on activities related to the pandemic and on the investing in Canada plan.

The government is doing many other things. There are expenditures, purchases, information on cybersecurity and technology we would like to look into. We need money to modernize our office and expand on the topics we study.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Thank you.

Ms. Hogan, what study do you think would be more important for Canadians? You talked about cybersecurity. That is a very important issue. Why are you so interested in it?

12:30 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Cybersecurity and Internet access are two issues that worry me. During the pandemic, that service is practically essential, especially in the education of children and medical visits. It is very important for us to be able to look into improvements to be made or shortcomings in that area.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Thank you very much.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly Block

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Yip.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Welcome back to the committee, Ms. Hogan, Mr. Hayes and Ms. Leblanc.

How has the pandemic impacted the OAG? To what extent has the OAG been able to maintain its audit activities during the pandemic?

12:35 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Like several organizations and a good part of the public service, for the most part our employees have been working remotely since March. That brings about the need to adapt to so many different ways of working. Coaching and mentoring employees is different in a virtual world. Accessing the entities that we audit and the information they need to provide in order for us to do our audits is different, not only for us but also for folks in the public service.

How have we been able to maintain our work? At first, I think, it was a little difficult. We needed to find the right collaboration tool and the right ways to have conversations with public servants that are sometimes protected. We needed to find creative ways to find audit evidence, because we might not have access to the traditional information that we would normally have been looking at in our financial audits and our performance audits.

When it comes to the work that we're now doing on the COVID response, I think the biggest impact is capacity, both in the departments and within our office. As you can imagine, the Public Health Agency, Health Canada and ESDC are departments that are key in providing COVID response measures to Canadians. That was in addition to their regular work. Then you add the demands of an audit.

What we're seeing is that it's taking us a lot longer to deliver audits. We are mostly motivated by the desire to find the right balance with departments as they provide much-needed assistance to Canadians and try to help us deliver on our mandate, which is to provide some reports to Parliament to hold government to account.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Do you feel that these delays and technical difficulties will impact the quality of these COVID audits?

12:35 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Not at all. Our audit reports will still be based on strong evidence. They will be cleared with the entities. I do believe that the issues we're encountering are just slowing us down a little. What we might see, in order to ensure that we have good quality of audits—and we're actually doing that in an audit on CERB—is that we're going to split it into a few pieces. We're going to start now and look at the design and implementation of a program. Then we will wait for data to accumulate, for time to have passed so that we can look at the effectiveness of the program and whether or not controls were in place to do what it should do.

I think that will allow us to maintain a good-quality audit, if we're able to divide it into parts that are more manageable and that make sense given where we are, real-time, still responding to a pandemic.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Will you be able to meet the deadlines, given the slowness or the delays?

12:35 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I'm happy that you asked.

On the investing in Canada plan, I wrote last week to the Speaker to say that we have run into some issues with the timing. The motion that was passed in the House asked us to report on the investing in Canada plan by January. Unfortunately, the pandemic has impacted our capacity and that of the departments we're auditing. We indicated that we would be tabling that report in March instead of January.

Right now, we have a plan for the COVID audits that sees some being completed in late January, some in March, and some in May. Again, we have to recognize that we need to be fluid and ready to respond and adjust, as everyone tries to deal with the waves of the pandemic. They go up and down as we enter into the winter, and we need to see how that might impact our work.

We will keep you informed if we anticipate some additional delays.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Those delays will impact the remaining, non-COVID audits.