Evidence of meeting #30 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was keenan.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Yes, but what's the final date you think you would have most of these things done? I'm just looking for a date, if I could.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
Mike, I think 2023 is fair. Is that fair?
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Yes.
It's 2023 for the full evaluation and October 2021 for the performance indicators.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much, Mr. Fergus.
We will now go to the last round of questioning, a two-and-a-half minute round, starting with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My question is for Ms. Hogan.
Ms. Hogan, I believe I understood from your speech that there's an urgent need for action to implement the recommendations that are critical to ensuring rail safety.
However, I'm a little hung up on one of the six recommendations, the one about consultations to improve the 2015 regulations to strengthen rail safety management systems. The department responded that these consultations would not take place until April 2022, more than a year after your report.
Are you satisfied with that timeline?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I acknowledge that any action may take time to implement and complete. There are also capacity issues in all departments.
All in all, I think this is a reasonable time frame. I'd still like to see action taken sooner, but at the end of the day, the goal is for action. I would encourage the department to try to move the work forward to get ahead of these dates. At least dates have been announced and we can follow up on this.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Keenan, is there any particular reason why it takes more than a year to launch consultations on an issue as important as people's safety?
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
I would say only that we recognize the need to move faster on this. We had some analytical homework to do to identify the best path forward, and we're consulting with leading organizations. We anticipate making significant progress, including consulting on this, over the next year.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
What accounts for this, Mr. Keenan? Is it a lack of resources?
I know it takes preparation to do consultations, but I have this image in my mind that the house is on fire, but you're telling me you're going to put it out in a month or a few months, that it's no more important than that. You acknowledge the consultations, but you're putting them off to a year from now.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
In some ways we have started the consultations already, but I'll turn it over to Mr. DeJong to elaborate.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Thank you for the question.
Much of our regulatory development work will be informed by the findings of our effectiveness audits on SMS, which will be launched in September 2021. We'll be able to use those results to help drive our regulatory action in this space.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you.
We will now go to Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Madam Chair, I would like to return to the event in Field in 2019.
If I understood Mr. Keenan's comments correctly, following that event Transport Canada put in place a regulatory requirement that hand brakes be applied on trains left unattended on certain grades. Two years later, another train was left without the hand brakes applied. Transport Canada found that there was an “immediate threat” of another fatal accident.
In your comments you suggested that there was a misinterpretation of Transport Canada's regulations by the rail company. What was that misinterpretation? Also, who is at fault when it comes to the event in 2021?
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
It's a very good question.
Madam Chair, I apologize. We're going to have to apply some discretion to our answer here. The reason for doing so is that the question is with respect to an incident that's currently under assessment and potentially investigation.
If I may, I'm going to turn to Mr. DeJong to share what information he can about this incident to elaborate on the difference between 2019 and the 2021.
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Thank you for the question.
One of the ministerial orders issued after this incident involved requiring railways to work on a clear definition with respect to “attended” versus “unattended” trains. It's anticipated, as railways work with government to deliver on a clear definition, that this will help to ensure a consistent implementation of the rules with respect to preventing incidents involving uncontrolled movements.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Okay.
This Is frustrating, because it seems as though lives are at stake. People are getting on board these trains under conditions that are clearly unsafe, and it's difficult to get answers to these simple questions.
How, after an event that killed three men, was another event that was at high risk of fatal accident allowed to occur two years later?
It sounded from your previous comments as though you were indicating that the order that was put in place around applying hand brakes was not clear enough and that the rail company misunderstood or misinterpreted it and so didn't apply the hand brakes and almost caused another fatal accident.
Does the responsibility lie with Transport Canada to put clear regulations in place that the rail companies understand, or does the responsibility lie with the rail company to follow the law?
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
There are two things on this.
The Field incident was a terrible tragedy, and it pointed out and revealed a risk. We took immediate action and put a very clear and very strong rule in place.
The second incident resulted in our providing additional rules that I think make absolutely clear the scope of the application of the “train securement on grade” rules. This second one is an example of an identified risk resulting in proactive action, whether through enforcement or through rules, to ensure that the risk does not turn into an accident.
The third point is that I would contest the characterization that it's unsafe, because the actual facts and the statistics and the evidence point to the fact that the rail system is getting safer over time. The number of accidents and the number of deaths are going down, while the volume, the number of trains on the tracks, is going up. As a result, there's a reduction in the rate of accidents and there's a reduction in the risk.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much, Mr. Keenan. We will have to end there. We are well over time.
Colleagues, I want to thank you for the very tough but fair questions that you've asked here today.
Thank you, witnesses, for joining us. We certainly do appreciate hearing your testimony.
Just to remind you, colleagues, Tuesday's meeting will be on report number 9, on the Investing in Canada plan.
Is the committee in agreement to adjourn the meeting? Thank you very much.
We are adjourned.