Public Accounts Committee on May 25th, 2021

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, respectfully, in Nova Scotia it's 10%. Are we to add a 10% premium onto all of your estimates on a move-forward basis?

[Bill Matthews]

Madam Chair, maybe I can help out there. I spoke—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Respectfully, I've heard your answer before, Mr. Matthews. I'm looking to get it clearly from the Department of National Defence, on the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I'm sorry. We have now gone well over time, even though we added more time to your answer, Mr. Green. Perhaps you could ask for that again during your next round of questioning.

We will now move on to our five-minute round of questioning, starting with Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I'll just give a bit of my time to Madam Thomas to respond to Mr. Green's question.

Mr. Green, you wanted Madam Thomas to answer that question. Is that correct?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes. Somebody from the Department of National Defence and not PSPC, because I've already put this question to them.

[Jody Thomas]

I'd be happy to give you a very detailed written answer on this, Madam Chair, if that would be useful. Our budget does not include, at the time that it was posted, the provincial tax. However, we're happy to provide in detail how we budget and what it's inclusive of. I think it's best if we give you that in detail.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, on my behalf and that of the committee. I appreciate that.

My next question is for Mr. Matthews. With the greatest respect for all the great work that all the witnesses do, I would really like some succinct, numeric answers.

For the duration of the national shipbuilding project, what is the total amount of delays—meaning every ship, every day? What is the total amount?

[Bill Matthews]

Madam Chair, if we're into questions of what the impact is on the budget, that's best placed to the Department of National Defence or the Canadian Coast Guard, depending on which project you're after.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I wasn't necessarily asking about the budget.

Any of the witnesses can respond. I'm looking for this: If we added up all the delays and all the ships over the last decade, how many days would we get?

[Bill Matthews]

Unless my colleagues Simon or Michael have that handy, I think we would have to go back and provide the committee with a written answer, Madam Chair.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay. And—

[Michael Vandergrift, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

If I could, sir....

Madam Chair, there is a schedule in the Auditor General's report that outlines the original schedules through to the current schedules for the projects that were being considered by the Auditor General.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

What would be the total cost overrun then, Ms. Thomas or anyone else, for the last two years, the last five years and the last 10 years? I was shocked to see that we have one ship that is $111 million in one year. What's the total cost to taxpayers of these overruns?

[Jody Thomas]

That's a very complex question to answer and to provide you with a number on off the top of my head.

I think it's best that we provide that in writing, Madam Chair.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay. That's fine—no worries. I appreciate your focus on accuracy.

Another concern I have is that we have all these interim measures. Having seen organizations work, I know that sometimes interim measures can actually take away from the actual mission, so we end up getting into this vicious cycle of trying to.... I can imagine our being in a ship. Instead of building a new ship, we are just continually trying to plug holes. What is the total cost, both financial and with regard to human resources, of these interim measures that we have to do because we can't get the original mission done?

[Bill Matthews]

Again, Madam Chair, I think we'll have to take that back. However, I would underscore that, across the board, the older the ships get, the greater the increase in maintenance costs. It's quite substantial, and that's one of the reasons the strategy for the two polar icebreakers to be built at roughly the same time is important; it mitigates risk, in terms of both schedule and cost. We'll have to come back to you on specific questions in terms of what the forecast for maintenance is now versus what it would have been at the beginning, if we have that number. I'm not.... We may have some work to do on that, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Ms. Thomas, do I see your hand up?

[Jody Thomas]

You do. Thank you, Madam Chair.

We have done some estimating and, again, accuracy matters, so we will provide that in writing in terms of the Halifax class as we await the surface combatant.

The interim measure that's being used to offset as we wait for the joint support ships to be built is a contract that has been made public, and we will provide that cost to the committee as well.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I have two more questions for you, Ms. Thomas.

How many projects—because there's been a bit of time between the AG report and now—are there currently under way? How many ships are being built, and how many are on track versus how many are not?

[Jody Thomas]

Certainly at this time we have our Arctic and offshore patrol ship project under way, and the joint support ship under way. Those are in construction phases. We have two of the AOPS in the water; one is doing trials now with the navy, and working very well. The surface combatant project is under way; we have naval large tugs under way and, of course, we have ongoing maintenance of the Halifax class vessels, and we're happy to provide to you the details of those.

All the projects have experienced delays. Some of them are COVID-19 related; some of them have to do with some of the foundational challenges of the national shipbuilding strategy when it started up, but we're very comfortable that we are gaining ground and the projects are coming along nicely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence.

Witnesses, I would just remind you that, for any written responses that will be provided to the committee, we would ask that you get those to us within three weeks.

Colleagues, we will now go to our next round of questioning, which is a six-minute round starting with Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Chair, since the beginning of this meeting, I have been shocked to see the lack of seriousness in the handling of a file—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. I thought I was up after Mr. Lawrence, but I had to step out just for a second before I came back. I was just wondering if we could check that.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Kody, I'll give you your time.