Evidence of meeting #5 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
I'm very sorry, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, we do not have time for an answer.
I will turn now to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Madam Chair, Mr. Bachrach did such a great job, I'm going to give him this slot, too.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have three very short questions for Mr. Hayes.
Mr. Hayes, as disturbing as some of the findings of your report are, it's very good to hear your presentation today.
Is it fair to say that the goal of the risk-based inspection system is to minimize risk?
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I think you could ask the deputy minister that same question. I believe it is. I think it's to identify the priority areas where resources should be assigned.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Okay.
In your opinion, are the risks today to communities along the CN rail line in the region I represent greater or less than they would have been if Transport Canada had addressed all of the recommendations in your original 2011 investigation?
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
There are always inherent risks with the transportation of dangerous goods by any mode of transport. It's important for the department to take action on the violations they identify and ensure they have the right information to make their risk-based decisions.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Would you say that the risks today are higher or lower than they would have been if the department had addressed all of the recommendations, because not all the recommendations have been addressed to date, correct?
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
At this point, the recommendations haven't been completely addressed. There has been progress on some.
There is still risk out there, and accidents can happen.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Would that risk have been lower if all of the recommendations had been addressed?
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I think if the department can get its follow-ups up to 100% and have strong information, that will mitigate some risks. The emergency response assistance plans are very important to mitigate risks and to address the situations that can be unpredictable when an accident happens, to support first responders and all of that. I think that is an important area of risk that still has to be addressed.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
The CN rail line runs along the Skeena River, which is home to all five species of wild salmon and British Columbia's second largest wild salmon fishery. I mentioned some derailments along the line of wood pellets and coal. Eventually those derailments are going to involve products such as condensate or diesel. What do these findings tell us about the environmental risks, and are the risks today greater or less than they would have been if Transport Canada had addressed all of the recommendations in your original report?
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Mr. Hayes, I would ask that you give a very short answer, please.
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I'll just say that the risks to human health and the environment depend on the nature of the substance that is released or spilled. In terms of the example you gave, the consequences can be very severe.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much.
We will now move to our five-minute round and will start with Mr. Webber.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
Thank you, Chair.
In the opening statement of Mr. Hayes, he mentioned that with respect to pipelines, the Auditor General has found that, since 2015, the Canadian Energy Regulator has largely implemented the three recommendations.
I just want to congratulate Ms. De Silva for her wonderful work and the work of her staff. I think it's fantastic that you've addressed these. That is a good thing.
I have a very quick question about the tragedy in Edmonton—and, of course, my sincere condolences go to the family.
How long was that site halted for, Ms. De Silva, or is it still halted?
12:15 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Regulator
First of all, thank you for your kind words.
The work related to the trench boxes in question remains halted while this inspection officer order is in place. That includes requiring the company to suspend the use and operation of these trench boxes until it can demonstrate its capability and capacity to oversee such high-risk activities.
Also, the company needs to conduct an investigation to determine the root causes of the incident. Only once we, as the regulator, are satisfied that those objectives have been achieved would the work continue with those specific pieces of equipment.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
Do you have any thoughts on how long it will take to do the compliance assessment and the assessment of the risks?
12:15 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Regulator
I am personally not able speculate on that. I don't know if—
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
Okay, I'll just move on, then.
We do know that transporting goods such as oil is much safer by pipeline than it is by rail. It is also more environmentally friendly. At the same time, we are continuing to increase our transport of oil by rail. In the last 10 years it has almost doubled, which I don't understand.
I guess I would address my questions to Mr. Keenan.
In the text of your statement, Mr. Keenan, you mentioned that Transport Canada has “also amended regulations to impose stricter requirements on the securement of unattended trains”. My thought here is: Why do we have unattended trains carrying dangerous goods? How frequently do unattended trains carry dangerous goods?
12:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
In recent years, Transport Canada has, in several rounds, strengthened the rules on the securement of unattended trains. Offhand I don't have the statistics on unattended trains and dangerous goods, but a train can be unattended for some period of time in the course of a journey.
As an example, I can give you the latest strengthening of the rules after the terrible tragedy with a grain train in Field, B.C. Transport Canada imposed very strict rules for the securement of trains on mountain grades. That train was unattended, but it was unattended for literally a few minutes while the crews swapped. Because one crew had reached its time limit for fatigue, they were swapping to a new crew, and in that process something happened and the train started to roll. In response to that, we put in place a requirement for hand brakes even if the train is stopping for a just a minute on a grade.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
That's good to hear.
Are any fines implemented at all for these violations?
12:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
Yes, there are. Part of the strengthening of oversight was the strengthening of enforcement. Whenever we have any information or any observation from an inspection that an unattended train was improperly secured or there was an unintentional movement of a train, we take action.
In the Sherbrooke subdivision, which includes the area of Lac-Mégantic, we found a wagon that was unattended. We issued an administrative monetary penalty against the operator for that because we have zero tolerance for those kinds of violations of the stronger rules.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
What kind of fine would it be for a violation like the one you just gave an example of? I'm just curious what the fine is.