Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

If I may, I just want to remind our members that while I know we are very interested in what is happening today as a result of the uncertainty we are living in, we need to focus on the report of the Auditor General.

Thank you.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, with all due respect, the revelations that we are getting in the conversations around the lack of preparedness on logistics preparation are very much in keeping with the audit. The fact that they are talking about follow-up plans in 2024 and 2028—if we are not laser-focused on their ability to deliver socks and uniforms and nuts and bolts, then what are we looking at in terms of COVID vaccinations?

I will go back to the question, respectfully. Our mandate is broad, Madam Chair, so back through you to the Department of National Defence, could you please answer this question?

[Jody Thomas]

Madam Chair, I'm pleased to answer.

I am very confident that the Canadian Armed Forces would be able to participate, lead or be a part of any vaccine distribution should we be asked to do so.

We have been working with the Public Health Agency, PSPC, Health Canada and other government departments since the beginning of the pandemic to assist in any way possible. Some of that you saw in the long-term care facilities. Now planning is under way for vaccine distribution.

Canadian Armed Forces were very heavily involved in PPE distribution from the beginning of the pandemic. I'm going to turn to Major Cadieu to explain to you some of the things that have been done and could be done if we were asked to distribute vaccine.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Major Cadieu, just as a caveat to that question, was the military also involved in the national emergency strategic stockpile distribution, or not at all?

[MGen T. J. Cadieu]

I want to start by reinforcing that our number one priority in the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence is to get the materiel and equipment to the men and women who are conducting operations on behalf of the Government of Canada. I can say categorically that we get that right most of the time.

Consider the complexity of the challenge. We move about a half billion items of inventory and materiel. We procure it. We warehouse it. We move it out to the teams that require it. Often those teams are not static. Once we acquire a piece of equipment and materiel, we are responsible to look after it for the life cycle of that equipment, so we take that very seriously. For CAF members who are deployed on operations, we deliver each and every time.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is your mandate. I need to get directly to the question.

The Auditor General's report, section 3.11 says:

We found that a third of some 1 million requests were rerouted. Rerouted requests resulted in increased use of commercial transportation....

I put to you, if these were COVID vaccinations that were being rerouted, we'd have a problem.

How do you comment on that?

[MGen T. J. Cadieu]

We have taken direction from our deputy minister and our chief of the defence staff to start getting at some of these issues now. The deputy minister referred in her opening remarks to the fact that we have established in this department a defence supply chain oversight committee. The committee comprises both the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence, providing oversight to that supply chain.

Our vice chief of the defence staff, on the direction of our deputy minister and our chief of the defence staff, has made this supply chain reform one of our priorities.

We also recognize that getting at this needs us to do more than just address symptoms. We have to address long-term causes, so we are very focused on people, processes and systems. We could speak to some of those things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Last question—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

No, thank you very much.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

As a point of order, Madam Chair, I just have a point of order for you to clarify.

When you intervene on my time, does the time stop? Because quite frankly, your editorial on my intervention took away from my time. I'm saying that with the utmost respect, Madam.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

One moment, Mr. Green.

All right, we did not stop the clock, but I'm happy to give you another 30 seconds.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. I'm a New Democrat and I fight for every second.

Through you to National Defence, given the nature of these reports, were you surprised by the information found by the Auditor General, or were you aware of how badly the supply chain management system was operating?

[Jody Thomas]

We were aware that there were problems in the supply chain, and that's why a 10-year project was begun two years ago in order to rectify the problems and to look at automating the system. We have a new project, AIT, which is a bar-coding project in definition. We have been looking at the delivery routes and we've been looking at KPIs. That's why the oversight committee was put in place before the Auditor General's report came out. The Auditor General's report confirmed what we knew and what we were already beginning to work on.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I will now move to our second round of questioning, and the first speaker is Mr. Bezan for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to continue on with that line of questioning on the vaccine distribution. Essentially, I think if you look at the Auditor General's report, Madam Chair, it talks about the problems being around materiel management, not necessarily logistics. As I told Major-General Cadieu when he made this announcement at the national defence committee on Monday, I have full confidence in our armed forces and the Department of National Defence getting this right in the COVID distribution.

In the Auditor General's spring report, she says in paragraph 3.30 that the delays have affected the capacity to perform duties of the Canadian Armed Forces, and we know that there are a number of requests, 162,000 requests, that were late over a year. Do any of those delays in requests for materiel affect the logistical ability of the Canadian Armed Forces to manage the logistical delivery of vaccines across this country?

[Jody Thomas]

I would say unequivocally, no. There is no impact on the ability to deliver vaccines should the Canadian Armed Forces be asked to do so.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When we are looking at the delivery of vaccines—and I know that this is still all at the discussion level right now, the planning is in place—we're talking that we're still 60 to 90 days out from receiving those first vaccines. Are there going to be specific resources that are going to be dedicated to this effort from the Canadian Armed Forces, such as outlined in the Auditor General's report, to ensure that these deliveries happen on time?

[Jody Thomas]

There are a number of oversight committees and working groups, and it's busy, heavy-lifting work to look at this from deputy minister and chief of the defence staff levels through the system. Major-General Cadieu sits on one of those committees, and he is very actively involved with PHAC on the logistical planning, so I'll ask him to give you some of the detail of what's being examined.

[MGen T. J. Cadieu]

The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces are currently supporting the Public Health Agency with a detailed logistical planning effort to help better understand what the requirements are going to be for the eventual rollout of the COVID-19 vaccines. That work is still ongoing. The role that the Canadian Armed Forces is going to play or could potentially play in the rollout is yet to be confirmed.

What is almost a certainty is that no one entity in this nation is going to be able to take on this challenge independently. Again, various options are being considered right now, but the ultimate solution will likely be a combination between public and private collaboration in terms of getting this vaccine to where it needs to go in support of Canadians.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, through you to Major General Cadieu, is this a named operation yet by National Defence?

[MGen T. J. Cadieu]

Since the start of the pandemic, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence have been trying to do our part alongside whole-of-government partners. That includes through integration with the Public Health Agency at the start of the pandemic under the rubric of Operation Laser—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay. This would be part of Operation Laser, then?

[MGen T. J. Cadieu]

Madam Chair, at this time we do not yet know the extent of it or the role the Canadian Armed Forces could play in the actual rollout of the COVID vaccine. The logistical planning support and the liaison currently being provided to the Public Health Agency are under our existing operations.