Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'd like to go to Ms. Tapley.

One of the findings in the report was talking about data management. It was mentioned throughout the witness testimony about the nuances of different due processes that individuals are afforded under a system which I don't think anyone calls into question.

How are we working to improve that data management, such that the nuances and the different areas in which asylum seekers or other individuals have their due process are being calculated and shared among agencies?

[Catrina Tapley]

Thanks for that, Mr. Chair.

We have changed our existing quality assurance and data monitoring to ensure that all removal orders are entered correctly in the system to allow the CBSA to better manage its inventory. Over the past six months, all removal orders issued were finalized correctly.

We take this report seriously. We are working for a longer term.

These are interim solutions. The longer-term solution is to modify the IRCC system, or the global case management system, to include the tracking of these decisions.

There are two other things, if I may, that I would note are very important. One is called the Asylum System Management Board, which I mentioned in my opening remarks. It is an opportunity for the three of us, Mr. Wex, Mr. Ossowski and me, as heads of the three organizations, to share information, to work collaboratively on priorities and to track our decisions on how we're building different processes that are there.

That, I think, has been tremendously helpful in terms of better horizontal co-operation and better meeting the needs of the three organizations in play.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to go to Mr. Ossowski. When I read through the report, obviously, we have principles in place that if it's unsafe to remove certain foreign nationals because of war, conflict or extreme weather events, basically we have a bit of a stop-gate in that regard. How has COVID-19 impacted that? You mentioned that you have had some ability as a result to reallocate resources towards this, but have there been challenges in being able to get foreign nationals out because of the global pandemic?

[John Ossowski]

Yes, in fact, obviously, with reduced air travel, it's harder to get those flights to move people back to where they came from. The countries that we have deferrals of removals to have stayed relatively stable. We have around 14 countries right now that are not suitable to return people back to, for whatever reason, because of war or particular situations. That accounts for roughly 6,000 people whom we could otherwise remove. For sure, the logistics of the entire process in working with countries, making arrangements with them, have been hampered as a result of the COVID pandemic.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Can I ask about the voluntary return program? It's one of the recommendations in the report. Other jurisdictions—perhaps Europe was mentioned—as a way to be able to try to get more individuals back out of the country that can perhaps do it on a voluntary basis.... Where are we at with that recommendation?

[John Ossowski]

I'm pleased to report that we're working on that. We've reviewed our previous experience with a program that we had a few years back, and we've looked at other countries to see if there are ways to finetune it. We're hoping to have something up and running by Q3 in 2021-22.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my witnesses.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you both.

We go over to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, who's in person, I take it.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I'd like to say hello to my colleagues and all the witnesses present today.

Ms. Hogan, it's a pleasure to see you again. We're going to make it a habit. My first questions will be for you.

You report is quite overwhelming. Once again, you've produced an extensive report, which is also disturbing to ordinary Canadians. The government had provided funding for the voluntary return assistance programs announced in 2019 and funds for its operation directly from 2020.

Do you think this program that is now in place has been delayed by the pandemic?

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for the question.

I should point out that if the agency is aware of any delays with respect to this program, the agency is the one that can tell you. During our audit, we noted that the program was underutilized. I encourage you to ask agency officials this question.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

We'll be able to do that at a later date, Ms. Hogan. Thank you for the clarification.

In the case of applications for voluntary return assistance, the situation of the individuals involved is delicate. Some of them leave a country under tragic conditions or circumstances.

Isn't it utopian to ask these people to turn themselves in?

[Karen Hogan]

It is my understanding that all cases in the inventory of removals are those where all legal avenues have been exhausted. The issue is not whether they'll have to leave the country—they will have to, as Mr. Ossowski mentioned earlier. If they are from countries where there is war, for example, they are not included in this inventory, and their case is not among those we have examined.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

These aren't necessarily refugee protection claimants who have been rejected under other types of programs or removal orders. Is that correct?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm sorry, but could you repeat the question?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

In the situation you mentioned, which involves people who aren't subject to removal orders, these aren't applications that involve other types of programs, which could be related to criminals, for instance.

[Karen Hogan]

All the cases in the inventory are related either to rejected refugee protection claims, criminality cases, or cases where visas have expired. These individuals must leave the country, and this is a legal fact.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'll now move on to another topic. You say the following in the report:

Poor data quality and case management weaknesses resulted in avoidable delays for thousands of cases. Deficiencies in information sharing with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada also delayed cases.

Of course, I've analyzed the entire action plan. It's clear that processes should be implemented and accountability mechanisms put in place to more appropriate guide case management.

Ms. Hogan, do you think there are any other problems? Having processes is good, but is the root of the problem a lack of IT tools, a lack of human resources, or something else?

[Karen Hogan]

We did not examine whether it was under-resourced. I think the agency mentioned that it received a little more money. The problem is probably caused by human error or a delay in the exchange of information.

The system did not assist the agency in setting priorities and there was no alert when a change was made or new information was available. It was a combination of several elements.

The action plan submitted by the agency is good, but the agency will also need continued support once the measures are in place.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

When you talk about the system, are you talking about an out-of-date computer system or faulty processes?

[Karen Hogan]

It's a bit of both. Case management was deficient and the system didn't help the agency in prioritizing or triaging files.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

In terms of resources, over the past 10 years there have been major investments to improve the efficiency of the asylum system, particularly in the case of enforceable removal orders. We know that the Canada Border Services Agency is responsible for this.

As of April 2019, approximately 50,000 people were covered by the measures. In two-thirds of the cases, it was people we had lost track of. That was precisely 34,700 individuals, representing 70% of the files.

Do you think this is acceptable for the Government of Canada?

[Karen Hogan]

The cases are different. It's also important to know that, if the agency can't find an individual, it's likely that the person has already left the country.

In the case of criminals, it's very important to follow up more rigorously to ensure public safety.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Apparently, 70% of cases elude us, which means that the system only works in 30% of cases. If I make an analogy with the school, that 30% isn't even a passing grade.

In addition, in order to improve these processes, there has been major investment to manage, among other things, enforceable removal orders. We are investing more money, but the number of removals has remained virtually unchanged in recent years, even for priority cases.

We invest more money to be more efficient, but we're handling almost the same number of cases. How can we explain this?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have five seconds.

[Karen Hogan]

The purpose of our audit was to examine the cases included in the inventory. The question of what the agency did with the surplus money should be asked directly to the agency.