Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 16th, 2021

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Oh, you can't, no, so we're getting them. Is that what's happening?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

You are.

They were distributed to you by the clerk of the committee.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay, very good.

Valerie can continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Madam Bradford, absolutely, you can, yes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

This is a new motion recommended by the former committee to future PACP committees. It deals with the deadline for responses to questions:

That, when undertakings are given by witnesses at committee meetings to provide further answers to questions or follow up information, the witnesses be given three weeks to provide the committee with a written response, if a response is not received within the specified time that the committee invite the appropriate accounting officer to appear before the committee to explain why the information has not been provided in the time requested.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Is there any debate on this motion?

(Motion agreed to)

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

This one deals with follow-up responses:

That, pursuant to Standing Orders 108(1)(a) and 108(3)(g), with regard to any request for information or response contained in any report of the committee, the department or agency tasked with providing the request for information or response be obliged to provide it by no later than the deadline contained in the same report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Is there any debate? Are we agreed?

(Motion agreed to)

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

The next one deals with committee chair and staff authorization:

That the committee Chair and staff be authorized to review government responses to recommendations made by the committee during the 43rd Parliament; acknowledge by letter, on the committee’s behalf, receipt of government responses where they respond clearly and completely to recommendations or request further information or clarification, as required; monitor the implementation of government commitments made in response to committee recommendations, and request further information as required; and report to the committee on these activities in a timely fashion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Do we agree on this motion?

(Motion agreed to)

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

The next is detailed action plans to address recommendations:

That all organizations that have been subject to a performance audit or a special examination by the Office of the Auditor General of Canada provide a detailed action plan to address the audit recommendations which have been agreed to—including specific actions, timelines for their completion and responsible individuals—to the committee and the Office of the Auditor General of Canada within six months of the audit being tabled in the House of Commons; That organizations that are invited to appear before the committee to discuss the findings of an audit should provide an action plan to the committee no later than 48 hours prior to the hearing; That action plans and progress reports received by the committee be published on the committee’s website.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Is there any debate?

Go ahead, Madam Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'm very pleased that this motion is here, because it follows on work that we did in 42nd Parliament specifically addressing action plans that needed to be submitted to this committee following our studies. I'm very proud to see that it is here. Thank you very much. I certainly support it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Is there anyone else who would like to speak to the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

That was the last routine motion.

Madame Bradford, thank you. It's trial by fire at your first committee meeting, so thank you for taking care of that business.

Typically at these first meetings we move on to new business so I'm just going to ask, is there any new business from any member?

Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. As a new member too, I can sympathize. Thanks for your great service, Madam Bradford.

I do have a motion here that I hope was distributed, which I'd like to table for consideration. It's being distributed now.

Should I just read it out while it's being distributed?

I move:That the committee may meet in camera only for the following purposes: (a) to consider a draft report; (b) to attend briefings concerning national security; (c) to consider lists of witnesses; (d) for any other reason, with the unanimous consent of the committee;

That all votes taken in camera, with the exception of votes regarding the consideration of draft reports, be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings, including how each member voted when recorded votes are requested.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Typically, I would proceed to debate on the motion, but before I do that I'm getting advice from the clerk, which I will relay to you. Then I'll recognize Madam Shanahan first and go around to see if there are others who want to speak to the motion.

Colleagues, I got some procedural advice. I'm going to rule the motion in order because this committee is a master of its own domain. It can determine best how it wants to proceed. Mr. Desjarlais has read the motion. You have the wording of it in both official languages as well, so I encourage you, if you want, to debate.

Madam Shanahan, you were first and then I'll recognize Mr. Dong. If you want to catch my attention, please raise your hand so I can see you.

Go ahead.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to hear Mr. Desjarlais' rationale behind this motion because, at first glance, I'm failing to understand why we are putting a witness....

Let me just back up here. I've served on other committee, including the ethics committee, and it was a disturbing trend to me to see that witnesses were being subjected.... These were witnesses who are ordinary, private citizens for the most part, and yet they must appear in front of any committee. They must. Normally we ask them to appear and it's only failing that when the committee decides that it needs to go further and subpoena a witness to cause them to appear.

There were a number of occasions, including a study where we were dealing with sexual aggression, online cyber sexual sensitive material and so on, where indeed some witnesses wanted to present to us and others did not. I would be very uncomfortable that we could not make that decision as a group on a what has normally been done in this committee—Chair, you'll agree with me here—namely, by using a consensus-type of decision-making process in which we would respect the desire of a witness to appear privately. If there were a member here who for some reason of their own was going to insist that a witness testify publicly on information that we could just as well obtain in camera.... Doing so in camera would not hamper our work in any way whatsoever. We could obtain the same information and we'd be able to use it. We have very responsible procedures in place to get the information that we need as parliamentarians, but at the same time respect the witness.

I have great difficulty with this motion and I cannot support it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Mr. Dong, you were next.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

What I'm going to say is pretty short.

Madam Clerk, would it be possible for you to send a copy of the motion to members joining virtually? I didn't get anything in my P9 account. It would be very helpful if I could get a copy of this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Sorry, Mr. Dong. Absolutely, we will make sure that's part of the process now. Everyone will get a bilingual copy emailed to them.

The next speaker I have is Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly salute the thought behind this motion. The more public we can be, the better, generally. There is definite truth to sunlight being the best disinfectant.

Unfortunately, as Ms. Shanahan pointed out, there can be occasions where this would be overly prescriptive. One could think of many different scenarios. As Ms. Shanahan also said, we generally work by consensus at this committee. I believe it will generally be the direction of this committee and of the members to have everything where we can be in public, in public. I trust that will happen.

For those reasons, we will have to decline to support this, although I definitely salute the intent behind it. We should definitely strive to be as public and as open as we can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Blake, go ahead.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the honourable members for considering this motion and the certain aspects of it that would increase our ability to have proper oversight in these committees. I think it was pointed out by Madam Shanahan that consensus is often the procedural tool that we use to make decisions. I want to point members to consider aspect (d), referring to all other reasons, with the unanimous consent of the committee, in that such a power would still be vested within the committee. We could still make consensus decisions on how we go in camera.

The purpose is to ensure that Canadians have the proper oversight of all committees. This is their institution. It's their House. We have to find ways to increase the ability of transparency. That's what the intent of the motion is.

There were times in previous Parliaments where the government tried to move committee meetings in camera to force difficult issues and votes behind closed doors to avoid public scrutiny. For the sake of Canadians and the ability to have proper oversight, I believe that these three aspects cover the concerns raised by the members and provide Canadians with the ability to have confidence in this committee and our institutions that this oversight has been proper.

The decisions made in camera are for legitimate reasons. That's the reason I bring this motion forward.

I just want to thank members again for their consideration. Again, I point to (d) for any matters of consensus. We can still go in camera, which has been the predominant concern.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Kmiec]

Go ahead, Madam Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I believe Mr. Fragiskatos had his hand up first.