Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Monique Frison]

It does include follow-up and monitoring and reporting throughout the life of the project. As I mentioned earlier, we're looking at different ways we can continue monitoring over the life of the trees, including with sensors and remote monitoring.

[Jeff Labonté, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources]

If I could add to that, budget 2023 recognized that and included an extra $53 million for the department for data monitoring and data gathering to improve our ability to measure and understand the program's results and how it would look over time. That includes new technology, but it also includes new methodologies in science to support the ability to do that.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Planting trees is back-breaking work, and it's difficult to attract enough labour. Is there an adequate action plan to address this? When you look at exhibit 1.3, you go from low tree-planting targets to much higher ones.

[Monique Frison]

We have some funding in the two billion trees program to look at capacity building and also to conduct science and research.

One of the projects we've undertaken is to assess the survivability of seedlings that are distributed using drones, which might be a way to deal with labour shortages or with difficulties in accessing the sites where our partners would want to plant. We don't have the results from that pilot yet to know a bit more about whether the seedlings would survive in sufficient numbers to make that worthwhile. Certainly it is something we talk to our partners about.

When it comes to, for example, the provinces and territories, they would already have systems in place to have labour for their business as usual planting, which they can also rely on for this incremental planting.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It's good to learn that you have drones. I still remember planting in my own garden, and even if they're seedlings, it's still a lot of work.

The department said they wanted to publish some information on the gaps and issues raised by experts and environmental groups. What are some of these gaps and issues, and how do you plan to address them?

[Glenn Hargrove]

I think your comment refers to the remarks by Deputy Minister Tremblay.

[Derek Hermanutz, Director General, Economic Analysis Directorate, Department of the Environment]

Yes. Lindsay can answer part of the question.

[Lindsay Pratt, Director, Pollutant Inventories and Reporting, Department of the Environment]

One of the aspects of all of this is reporting on the greenhouse gas emissions, obviously. There have been concerns raised to ensure that Canada's official reporting of greenhouse gas estimates are as transparent and accurate as possible.

Some of the actions that we've taken recently include a plan to include in the next edition of Canada's national inventory report more disaggregated data when it comes to forests by provinces and territories.

We've recently undergone a review by a team of international experts. That happened back in September. We're waiting for that report of recommendations, which we will consider very seriously and implement over time.

We're looking closely at how we can improve the text in the report so that this very complicated topic can be more clearly articulated to those who read it.

Last but not least, we're also updating the improvement plan for forestry estimates, which we hope will be made publicly available in the near future.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're going to begin our third and final round, which involves questioning by six members. I was going to cut the time back. I'm not going to do that, but I'm going to be very firm about the time so we can get through a full round.

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for five minutes. The time needs to include the answers as well, so bear that in mind.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mr. DeMarco, could you explain in clearer language paragraph 1.23, your concerns about Natural Resources considering carbon offsets, it seems, and how that kind of goes against the grain of what this project is supposed to achieve?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

It's another iteration of the potential for double counting or the problem of a lack of additionality.

If offsets are not used properly, one project may be able to count twice for tree planting and some sort of carbon offset. We want to see these programs used to add value, not just double count things that are already counted in an offset program, for example.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Vandergrift, what is NRCan doing to address this concern?

[Michael Vandergrift]

Could I ask the team to reply, Chair?

I'm sorry, Mr. McCauley.

[Glenn Hargrove]

We certainly wouldn't want to see any double counting either.

In the offsets space, there are two different markets. There are compliance markets and there are voluntary markets. We would not allow any offsetting in a compliance market that—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you have in that program anything in writing to prevent that or is it only that you would like not to see it?

[Glenn Hargrove]

Yes, there are written instructions around offsets.

Go ahead, Monique.

[Monique Frison]

It's in the written instructions we have on the Internet, which are available for program applicants. It's in the program application guide. We can provide those to the committee if you wish.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Commissioner DeMarco, are you comfortable with what they've provided—that we're not going to have that issue?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I would like to see the results of that, rather than just the instructions, to make sure it truly is avoiding double counting. I can't guarantee it at this point.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How long will it take to see the results?

[Monique Frison]

As Mr. Hargrove mentioned, if somebody is claiming in the compliance market, Environment Canada would know.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How long would it take to see those results?

[Monique Frison]

It would take a number of years because a tree won't be valuable for offsets until it's grown almost to maturity, which means in some cases 20, 40 or 60 years.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It could end up being double counted and we'll all be long retired before we actually catch it.

[Monique Frison]

Not—