Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Pardon me, Mr. Hayes. Go ahead.

[Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thanks.

I'll point to the date of our report, which is an important piece for an audit. It's dated February 7. The magic around that date is that we were carefully considering all the evidence up to that point in time. We received evidence and were asking for information from CBSA up until the end of January, which we were receiving in due course.

We considered every piece of information that every person we interviewed provided to us in both the interviews and the documentation. We would disagree entirely with the characterization that anything was a tick box. This was an important and comprehensive audit.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next will be Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I am quite struck by the fact that Mr. David Yeo was an outside contractor while also a government employee. Aside from the fact that, as best we can tell, he was contracted out to do absolutely nothing as part of the whole arrive scam process, the reason you contract out is, apparently, that you don't have the expertise inside the public service. That's the whole idea of contracting out. We don't have the expertise internally, so we're going to contract out. What an absolutely absurd, bizarre spectacle to contract out to a person who is also a government employee.

I want to ask a few questions about this.

Mr. Huppé, fundamentally, is this allowed?

[Roch Huppé]

I can't talk about this particular case, but fundamentally, to your question, I note that the directive on conflict of interest says it's not disallowed, but it really raises flags to the effect that if you're going to have secondary employment and there's going to be any perceived or real conflict of interest, you need to disclose it, so—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm going to jump in on a few points.

Number one, why can't you discuss this specific case? Number two, to say that it's allowed but it raises flags is clearly a bit of a problem. Either it's allowed or it's not allowed.

In fairness to Mr. Yeo, it was on his LinkedIn profile. It was kind of hiding in plain sight.

[Roch Huppé]

I can't talk about this case because I don't know exactly the work that was delivered. I have no clue about the contract itself and the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

One thing is clear, though. Aside from the particulars of the work done, he worked for Veterans Affairs Canada. That department got contracts from Dalian. Dalian “did work” and received money through the ArriveCAN process. It was on his LinkedIn profile that he was both a government employee and a contractor.

Based on that, is that allowed?

[Roch Huppé]

Let me be clear: If there is a conflict of interest, no, it's not allowed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's a heck of a caveat, though, sir. Was there a conflict of interest?

[Roch Huppé]

We can't prevent someone from having a second job. For example, if your dad has a shop somewhere and you help him out at night, that's not prohibited.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, but me selling ice cream on the corner while also working for the government is not the same as selling to the same department that I work for.

[Roch Huppé]

Absolutely.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Perhaps you can tell us this directly. You said that if it's a conflict of interest, then it's a problem. I think it's pretty clear that it is a conflict of interest and therefore it's a problem.

[Roch Huppé]

There's an investigation into that. That's why I'm refraining from talking about it. DND is looking into it. If there is a conflict of interest—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Part of the problem in this whole process is that we seem unwilling to call a spade a spade. The department was selling to the company that he worked for while he was also an employee of the department. How many investigators do you need to figure out that it's a conflict of interest?

[Roch Huppé]

MI think I'm actually being forthcoming here.

I'm pretty much telling you that a spade is a spade in the sense that if there was a conflict of interest, yes, it was a problem. There is an investigation. I'm not privy to that information. I have no clue. There could be an explanation. I'll let that roll out.

I think I'm being forthcoming in saying that absolutely there's a problem if—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I'm going to bang through a few other quick questions in the time I have left.

Last week, my colleague Larry Brock asked for a list of all government employees who are using the Yeo double-dipping model. Do you have that list available?

[Roch Huppé]

For all of government, no.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

For all government employees who are—

[Roch Huppé]

For all departments, we don't have that list. We have a list inside the TBS of our employees who did declare potential conflicts and—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. How many within the TBS are there?

[Roch Huppé]

Madam Cahill will say.

[Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

For the TBS, 52 employees have dual employment; 165 employees, including 40 executives—