Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm not asking just about dual employment, as in they sell ice cream on the weekends. I'm asking about people who are contractors to the government and employees of the government at the same time. How many do you have at the TBS like that?

[Karen Cahill]

We have none who have dual employment within the Government of Canada as contractors or—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Is there work being done on compiling a list across government? My colleague asked for that list.

[Roch Huppé]

Can I come back to you? As I said, it doesn't fall in...but we'll check.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I think this committee will agree to ordering the production of a list of all government employees who are also employed by or own contracting companies that do work for the Government of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can I just get the agreement of the committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Pardon me? Do you want the agreement of the committee? No, there was—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Whatever the process—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Huppé, you suggested that you could provide the committee with something. I just want to make sure that our analysts—

[Roch Huppé]

As I said, this doesn't fall under my purview. However, definitely, if there's an ask from the committee, we'll have to figure that out. Departments will be on the hook to give the information to someone so we can give it to the committee or give it to the.... We'll have to figure that out, obviously.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay.

Mr. Genuis, your time is up.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, Mrs. Shanahan. I was moving on, but go ahead.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

It's just on that issue.

Is ordering that kind of production of documents not something we can discuss—that we should discuss—as a committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

This is certainly something the committee can come back to.

I just wanted to make sure for our analysts here that if there was a request for documents and an agreement to provide them, it was captured. I didn't quite capture it. That's why I sought clarification.

Mr. Genuis, your time—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order on that.

I'd just like some clarification from you, Mr. Chair, or from the analysts. I've requested some documents. I don't think it's that complicated. Is the witness going to provide those documents? Is he expected to provide those? We just want to know all the contractors who are government employees, those who are defined in this way.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's fine. The official opposition has other rounds to probe and press specifics for documents. If witnesses are able to provide them, they will state so. If they will attempt to do so, they'll note so. Then this committee can take a step further if we feel a response is not adequate or information is not forthcoming.

You were close, Mr. Genuis. I just didn't quite—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did he undertake to provide the documents, though?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Pardon me?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did he undertake to provide the documents? Are we getting those documents?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

At this point, no, but you're welcome to ask him again.

I'm going to move on now to—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Does the committee agree to order the documents?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, we're not at this point yet. You're jumping a few steps. This committee does operate well with witnesses. They provide information in their field when explicitly asked. That was not done specifically in this case. You're welcome to come back to this on your turn.

I'm going to turn now to Ms. Khalid. There's ample time, Mr. Genuis, to come back to this.

I will say before you begin, Ms. Khalid, that the reason I seek clarification is that sometimes members let it slide very quickly. I like to have an explicit response from the witnesses so that it is clear all around and we avoid confusion later. That is it. Members are certainly entitled to ask for information if they find the response is lacking because either information is not available or witnesses do not know. That is their purview. I just want to seek clarification from both sides that it is understood.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

At the outset, I'd like to thank you for clarifying that. I really appreciate that we have a clear process on how we operate within this committee. I know there are a lot of visiting members from the Conservative benches, but I really appreciate the consistency in how you do things.

To get to our witnesses, I believe it was a member from the TBS who said that deputy ministers can't lay eyes on every single contract that goes through the department. In this instance, I know that a lot of us are very concerned about how it was that $50 million-plus was spent on an app, and then ultimately, since 2011, $100 million was given to this organization. Where is the ultimate accountability on this? Is there somebody to blame? Who is it and how do we get there?

My question is for the TBS, please.