Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2024

[Roch Huppé]

When we say there were 118 contracts, it doesn't mean that all the contracts were not done in a fair and transparent fashion and that the work was not performed. With GC Strategies, we had an audit on the contracts and we know what the outcomes were. I'm not going to conclude without a wider review of all these contracts—there have been no audits, at this point, on all those contracts themselves—that every contract was done outside the rules because it was GC Strategies. I don't have that information right now.

Again I come back to the fact that when contracts are issued inside an organization, within the authorities of an organization, they need to follow the rules. The basis, the foundation, of our policies is that these contracts are fair, open and transparent, there's competitiveness and there's value for money. That's the basis of our policies.

There are hundreds of thousands of contracts out there. I would say that quite a number of contracts are done within the set of rules that should be applied.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that.

Something we hear from bureaucrats and some members of the public service on a regular basis is that politicians come and go but the bureaucracy stays—and they stay for a very long time. That's why I think it is so important for us to have accountability and oversight over how the bureaucracy in the public service operates. That's not to say we don't respect the work they do. They serve the public in a lot of different ways. However, I don't want a couple of bad actors to ruin the reputation of all the hard work that our public service does.

What do you recommend as to next steps for making sure that accountability is there and for making sure that taxpayer dollars over the span of a decade are not misused? Whether dollars are misused or not, how do we have transparency and make sure that Canadians have trust in our public systems?

[Roch Huppé]

First of all, you made a point on the bureaucracy. There are, I've heard, a lot of procurement officers today who are not liking what they see, because they take very high pride in how they do their work. They do it extremely well and do it within the rules, and again, they don't like to see something that could ruin a reputation they've worked so hard to build.

I always said when I got audited in my life—unless it was something huge or collusion, whatever it was—that weaknesses will be found. When I was in different departments, I always told the board of management not to give me too much crap about what was being found, but to give me crap if I didn't fix it.

The next step here, which is important, is that we take this very seriously; that every organization makes sure they understand their weaknesses; that they take the validation, certification and testing of the controls very seriously; that when we find some weaknesses, we correct them; and that we learn from the lessons of others. As I always say, if they find something over there, chances are you can find something very similar, so take these findings extremely seriously.

The job of the bureaucracy is to make sure that we have action plans that can be delivered and to make sure that we monitor the implementation of these plans and they actually produce the results they're intended to. Again, we have departmental audit committees with external members—objective external members—in every large department. They will be seized with the action plans at the CBSA, and one of their jobs is to ensure these actions get implemented as intended.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Beginning our—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Was that my entire time?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, it was, and some good time over that.

Beginning our third round, Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Huppé, the Treasury Board should know how many government employees are also double-dipping with federal government contracts. How many employees meet that criteria?

[Roch Huppé]

I'm sorry, sir. Do you mean within Treasury Board or do you mean—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I mean who work for the government.

[Roch Huppé]

Government-wide, I don't have that information right now. I don't know—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Will you provide that to the committee?

[Roch Huppé]

I could see what's in the art of the possible. I'd have to talk to my colleague, who is the chief human resources officer for the Government of Canada. We are digging into our own information, obviously, so we would have to see what—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Will you undertake to provide that information?

[Roch Huppé]

I'll undertake to see what's in the art of the possible there and get back to the committee with the possibilities of what we can report—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Instead of getting back to us with the possibilities, can you get back to us with what you find?

[Roch Huppé]

I could definitely try to do that, yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is that a yes?

[Roch Huppé]

We will get back to the committee with what we actually find—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Sir, it's a very simple question. Will you provide—

[Roch Huppé]

Yes. We will come back with what we find.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You'll come back with what you find.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I understood it as a yes, so thank you very much, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay. That's an undertaking to provide the information that was requested.

[Roch Huppé]

It's what we find. If we find we have issues doing it—that's what we find—we will let the committee know.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

No, sir.