That's all I can—
Evidence of meeting #106 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #106 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
What you've just said is that you're going to provide us with the information. You're not going to provide us with information about the information you can provide us.
You said before to Mr. Genuis that you were being forthcoming. The only thing forthcoming is that when we ask the same question multiple times, we get more information each time we ask it. You're either being transparent or you're not.
You've made an undertaking to the committee, which has been well received by the chair, that you will provide the information. That's not a question for which I'm looking for a response, but a statement of fact—
11:10 a.m.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'm trying to be honest here.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I'm trying to be honest with you that the appearance you're giving is that you are not being forthcoming. You came to the committee today. You knew it was an issue that we have government employees double-dipping and getting contracts from the government. This is absolutely unacceptable.
It strains the bounds of public confidence when the government says that, yes, it hired many orders of magnitude more public servants than it ever has, but it doesn't have the capabilities to do the work it needs to do, so it's going to outsource that work and outsource it to the tune of millions of dollars to people who already work for the federal government. That's why you're going to provide the information.
11:10 a.m.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
We will come back with what we find.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Thank you very much.
Ms. Hogan, did it raise any red flags during your investigation that Mr. Yeo of Dalian was a government employee? Was that detected by your office?
March 6th, 2024 / 11:10 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
No, because the Department of National Defence was not part of the ArriveCAN app.
What I could link to our findings, as we talked about when it comes to disclosure around invitations and gifts, is that there are rules around disclosures when a public servant might enter into an arrangement that has other employment income coming their way. This is a place where disclosure is essential so that a supervisor can assess if the demand might be incompatible with a public servant's job—whether it might have an impact on their ability to carry out their duties in an objective and fair manner.
I know it happens in the government. The disclosure is maybe not always happening. When the disclosure happens, you can take the measures you need. It's happened in my organization in the past that disclosure happened and we were fine with it, but there have been recent incidents where disclosure did not happen and we had to take action.
This is happening. I'm just not sure the comptroller general would be able to come up with a big comprehensive list, because it starts with awareness of the public service and disclosure to supervisors, and then action and documentation being taken.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Yes, for sure.
Who was responsible for hiring Minh Doan as CTO, as chief technology officer for Canada? Who would be responsible for that?
11:10 a.m.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll take that question, given that I am the CIO.
I assume the person responsible would have been the CIO.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay. Who was that?
11:10 a.m.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
At the time, it would have been Catherine Luelo.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay. Would you know if there was a recommendation for Mr. Doan for that position?
11:10 a.m.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Unfortunately, no, I wouldn't know that answer.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Was his involvement in arrive scam known to the Treasury Board Secretariat at the time?
11:10 a.m.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Is that at the time he was hired?
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
11:10 a.m.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
At the time he was hired, would the secretariat have known? They would have known that he was the chief information officer at CBSA, so I would say the answer is yes.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That is your time, Mr. Barrett.
I'll turn now to Ms. Bradford.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To go back to our Treasury Board officials, these are just some random cleanup questions.
Why didn't TBS take over the management of ArriveCAN's development once the cost had increased so substantially?
11:10 a.m.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Throughout the venture and the project, it always remained within the delegated authorities of the department, so there was no reason for us to step in.
Honestly, the development of such an app lies with the expertise of the departments themselves. There was no reason at that time for TBS to step in and take ownership. We don't deliver projects for departments. We provide the authorities and provide oversight when the department is not operating within their own authorities. In this case, they were.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Could you comment on the integrity regime? Should there be an expansion of the guidelines?
11:15 a.m.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
The integrity regime is actually a PSPC responsibility. I'm pretty sure that you're hearing from them tomorrow, so that's a question more suited for them.
On the integrity regime, to my knowledge, there's an update to the existing one that's....
No?
I'll pass it over to my colleague now.
11:15 a.m.
Samantha Tattersall Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
In the context of a review last year on contracts, PSPC noted that they are continuing to look at the integrity regime, and as Mr. Huppé said, they'll be here tomorrow to talk.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Okay. We look forward to that.
Looking at all the outside contractors involved in this, how does the security clearance work for contractors? Are contractors able to begin work before having obtained the appropriate clearances?
11:15 a.m.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll take that question given that I have responsibility over the directive on security management.
I think the answer is no. They wouldn't have been able to begin work. There's a standard on security screening that outlines the security screening requirements for all duties and positions in the federal government, including those of contractors. They would have had to follow those rules.
The responsibility, though, resides with the deputy head, the chain of command and the delegated authorities within a particular department, including the chief security officer, to make sure that those guidelines and those rules are followed.