Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2024

[Roch Huppé]

No, no.

No, not at all. The department would approve the actual payment under section 34, so there's someone who validates. Then the cheque printing is actually done by the Receiver General—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I'm getting process aspects mixed in, but yes, you're approving it.

To put a fine point on it, do you know how much was spent? Are you able to answer the questions that—

[Roch Huppé]

Listen, the Auditor General went through the files. She did an audit. She found that she wasn't able to trace all the financial records, so no, I don't, obviously, or else I would have given it to her.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Hence the problem.

Mr. Chair, I want to move a motion now, and I'll explain after I have moved it. It is:

That the committee report to the House that it calls on the government to prohibit any government employee from simultaneously working as a external contractor.

That is a matter-at-hand motion. I've sent an embargoed copy to the clerk, who can distribute it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

One second, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

What's an embargoed copy?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Members have received that motion. I certainly welcome all members to send motions to the clerk before they are tabled, to move things along. Of course, you're not required to do so, but it does prevent.... Again, if you do so, the clerk will process it. In this case, as in others embargoed, I'm a nobody. I'm going to do my job up here, but that does help move things along.

We have a motion on the floor.

Ms. Shanahan, your hand is up.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I want to speak to it as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. I'm going to go back to Mr. Genuis.

Ms. Shanahan, I'll come to you in a moment. Mr. Genuis is correct. He did not relinquish the floor.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe Ms. Shanahan's hand was up. The motion is still being distributed to members. I would appreciate hearing from Ms. Shanahan before we—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As would I.

As I corrected myself, Mr. Genuis was clear that he was not relinquishing the floor. He was signalling to make sure members had the motion, so that they could review it as he was speaking to it.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor. Afterwards, I'll happily go to Ms. Shanahan.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

The motion I have moved deals with a situation that we have recently heard about in the arrive scam scandal, which is that one of the contractors was given $7.9 million as part of the ArriveCAN process, for what work we still don't have clarity on. The arrive scam scandal led to this contractor, Dalian, receiving $7.9 million at the same time as this person was an employee of the Department of Veterans Affairs. The Department of Veterans Affairs, by the way, also gave money to this company. You have an employee of the government whose own department, as well as other departments, is giving money to his contract.

This is absurd. As I said earlier, the reason we see any contracting out is based on the idea that the government doesn't have the internal expertise to perform a particular task. Why would the government, contracting out on the basis that they don't have the internal expertise to do something, contract out to someone who is also a government employee? It makes no sense and allows individuals to double-dip. This shouldn't happen.

I asked our witness today directly if there are rules that clearly prohibit this practice, and he answered to the committee that there are not rules that could prohibit this practice and that there could be an evaluation around a conflict of interest, but in his words, it's “not disallowed”. I think it should be disallowed that you have somebody making money both as a government employee and as an external contractor, when they're being externally contracted on the basis of the alleged lack of internal expertise of government.

I would hope that this motion would have the agreement of the committee. I think it's important, in light of the evidence we've heard, to send a clear message to the government that this type of practice should no longer be allowed.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Again, we see a member of this committee pulling a stunt, whether it's at the top of the meeting or at the end of a meeting, in such a way.... We're already meeting three times this week. We've met numerous times before, and I'm sure we will continue meeting again.

The question was posed to the witness regarding practices in ethics and conflicts of interest that are pertinent to government employees, whether they have dual employment, whether they are working somewhere else or whether they have contracts. It's not something that I personally think we're going to settle in a prescriptive motion of this kind. We're public accounts. We study the Auditor General's reports. We look at what has been done and what can be improved.

In fact, it is something that may well merit a larger motion to go to a larger study—I would suggest not necessarily and very likely not by this committee—but I would ask Mr. Genuis and other members to please take the time to consult the members of this committee before springing this kind of last-minute motion on us.

With that, Chair, I move to now adjourn.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We have a motion to adjourn.

Clerk, please call the vote.

There is a tie, and the chair votes nay. The debate will continue.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

I see no speakers.

Clerk, please call the vote.

Again, I'll break the tie. I vote to proceed with the motion. I vote in favour.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Maybe it's a point of clarification.

I'm just checking to see how much time we have in the room. Obviously, I have other obligations in my constituency office. I would love to meet my constituents, who have been waiting for me for a while, so I just want to know how long we're going to spend on this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It just passed. The motion is done. Mr. Genuis has about 40 seconds remaining in—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm sorry. I meant this meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis has 40 seconds remaining. Then we have Ms. Bradford, and then we will be done.

Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Although I would welcome the extra time, I believe the rules are that if I move a motion, I'm done with my slot.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No. I've consulted with the clerk on this.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Oh, have you?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You're welcome to end.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Huppé, has your minister asked any questions, asked for any briefings or information? Have you provided any advice regarding this practice of double-dipping, of people working as contractors and as employees at the same time?

[Roch Huppé]

The minister asked me, as I said earlier, questions about the findings of the Auditor General. I have yet to personally speak to her about that practice, to be fair.