Evidence of meeting #107 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Arianne Reza  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Dominic Laporte  Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Catherine Poulin  Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch , Department of Public Works and Government Services
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Hilary Smyth

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here today.

Welcome to meeting number 107 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are appearing both in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

This is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming consideration of 2024 Report 1 of the Auditor General of Canada, entitled “COVID‑19 Pandemic: ArriveCAN”, referred to the committee on Monday, February 12, 2024.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Andrew Hayes, the deputy auditor general, and Sami Hannoush, principal. It's good to see you both again. I've seen you more than my spouse recently, it seems, which is a good thing on behalf of taxpayers.

From the Department of Public Works and Government Services, we have Arianne Reza, deputy minister. It's good to see you. Thanks for coming in today.

We also have Catherine Poulin, assistant deputy minister of the departmental oversight branch, and Dominic Laporte, assistant deputy minister of the procurement branch.

Our two lead principals will each have the floor for five minutes, as is custom. I'll turn to the Office of the Auditor General first.

Mr. Hayes, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

10 a.m.

Andrew Hayes Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, thank you for again inviting us to discuss our report on ArriveCAN, which we released on February 12.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Joining me today is Sami Hannoush, who was responsible for the audit.

This audit examined whether the Canada Border Services Agency, the Public Health Agency of Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada managed all aspects of the ArriveCAN application in a way that delivered value for money. I will focus my remarks today on the role played by Public Services and Procurement Canada.

The department was responsible for issuing and administering contracts on behalf of the Canada Border Services Agency and the Public Health Agency of Canada when a contract's value exceeded the agencies' delegated authority to procure. We found that Public Services and Procurement Canada challenged the Canada Border Services Agency's use of non-competitive processes to award ArriveCAN work. It recommended alternatives, such as shortening the duration of non-competitive contracts or running competitive processes with a shortened bidding period. Despite this advice, the agency moved forward with non-competitive approaches.

We also reported that the Canada Border Services Agency's overall management of the contracts was very poor. Essential information was missing from awarded contracts and other documents, such as clear deliverables and the qualifications required of workers.

We found, contrary to Public Services and Procurement Canada's supply manual, that the department co-signed several task authorizations drafted by the Canada Border Services Agency that did not detail task descriptions and deliverables. Without this information, it is difficult to assess whether work was delivered as required and completed on time while providing value for money.

Public Services and Procurement Canada also co-signed many of the agency's amendments to task authorizations. Some amendments increased the estimated level of effort or extended the time period without adding new tasks or deliverables. This drove up the contract's value without producing additional benefits.

To deliver value for dollars spent and support accountability for the use of public funds, the Canada Border Services Agency and Public Services and Procurement Canada should ensure that tasks and deliverables are clearly defined in contracts and related task authorizations.

This concludes my opening statement. We will be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Ms. Reza, you have the floor for up to five minutes, please.

10:05 a.m.

Arianne Reza Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to acknowledge that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin nation.

As the deputy minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada, my team and I are here to continue the important discussion about the Auditor General's report into the development of the ArriveCAN application.

I'm joined today by Dominic Laporte, assistant deputy minister for procurement, and Catherine Poulin, assistant deputy minister for departmental oversight.

During the pandemic, my department played a key role in keeping the work of the Government of Canada going as well as providing key support to provinces and territories. We are particularly proud of our role with regard to the urgent procurement of critical supplies and life-saving vaccines. PSPC has been part of two large audits since the pandemic, one related to the procurement of personal protective equipment and the other to the procurement of vaccines. These audits found, in general, that the controls and the procurement process worked as they should.

In the case of ArriveCAN, both the Auditor General and the procurement ombud have identified areas where we need to strengthen our oversight, notably related to documentation and to our procurement processes of IT consultants.

We accept these recommendations in full and have already put management actions in place to strengthen our processes.

Right now, we are focused on improving and further strengthening our processes, especially when it comes to IT procurement. We have been working since the fall to do just that.

Actions we’ve taken to date include improving evaluation requirements to ensure that resources are appropriately qualified; requiring increased transparency from suppliers around their price and use of subcontractors; improving documentation when awarding contracts and issuing task authorizations; and clarifying work requirements and activities, specifying which activities and which projects are worked on by contractors. In addition, my department is updating its guidance to aid other departments and agencies in procuring responsibly when using our procurement instruments under their own authorities. Finally, PSPC is also taking measures to appoint a senior executive who will be responsible for quality assurance and strengthening documentation within PSPC.

Fundamentally, improving IT procurement requires us to ensure that those processes are clear and transparent and that the roles, responsibilities and rules are understood, respected and adhered to. This includes working closely with the Treasury Board Secretariat and client departments and agencies to ensure that procurements are undertaken in a manner that respects the principles of fairness, openness and transparency.

In this regard, both the Treasury Board directive on the management of procurement and PSPC's supply manual stipulate the division of roles and responsibilities. For example, departments—our clients—are responsible for providing a justification for using non-competitive procurements.

In the case of procurements related to ArriveCAN, the Auditor General’s evaluation found that PSPC effectively provided a challenge function to the CBSA and proposed various alternatives to using non-competitive processes, such as running shorter competitive processes or shorter contract periods in the case of the non-competitive approaches. Within the context of the emergency situation brought on by the pandemic, PSPC and our legal counsel found that the justification provided by the CBSA for their approach was sufficient and met the criteria for emergency use.

When it comes to a lack of transparency around decision-making, we are committed to addressing the root causes, strengthening document management practices and continuing the deployment of our electronic procurement solutions so that transparency in decision-making is ensured and Canadians and parliamentarians can have renewed confidence in the administration of federal procurement activities. New measures that we’ve put in place have already addressed a number of these areas. We continue to take action to further strengthen the procurement of IT services.

In closing, I know that there have been many concerns raised in the media and in parliamentary committees regarding federal procurement and the integrity of the system. We share those concerns and are actively working to improve the procurement system as well as undertaking required investigations where warranted.

The domain of procurement is one that inherently has higher levels of risks associated with conflicts of interest. That is why the government requires all of its suppliers, their subcontractors and all employees to operate lawfully and in a responsible manner by, at a minimum, meeting the expectations and obligations set out in the Code of Conduct for Procurement. For federal public servants, those expectations and obligations are outlined in the Code of Values and Ethics. Among other things, these codes require that all employees declare conflicts of interest, where applicable.

These codes provide important underpinnings and guiding principles for the work that is done in procurement. Ensuring respect and adherence to these codes is of the utmost importance.

Our actions will help reinforce the adherence to the codes, improve the way we do business with companies and further safeguard the integrity of the procurement system.

Thank you.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Ms. Bradford, I saw you had your hand up. It's not up now. Do you have a point of order?

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

No.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Okay. I just wanted to double-check that I didn't miss you.

We're turning now to our opening round. Thank you very much for your opening remarks.

MP Kusie, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, witnesses, for being here today.

Thank you very much to the team of the Auditor General for you fantastic report.

Madame Reza, I'm glad to see you're in better health this week. Thank you very much for being here.

This has not been a good week so far for the Liberal government. In the meeting I attended yesterday, we had the Treasury Board Secretariat, including the comptroller of Canada, agreeing with the Auditor General and her report that Canadians did not receive value for money for their app.

I was very proud of my team, which pushed on the issue of the government employee who received $8 million for ArriveCAN while working in the public service at the same time. That should never have happened. I was also proud of the motion passed yesterday by my team, with the support of the committee, to ensure that we are aware of all of the public servants who might potentially be in conflicts of interest with their role in serving the Canadian people. We have a wonderful public service, but of course, we must always ensure that there is no conflict of interest.

This has not been a good week for the Liberal government and arrive scam. This is evidenced by the media reports today, unfortunately, of government members being triggered by the use of the words “arrive scam”.

Today, I'm going to focus my questions on the national security exemptions.

We have determined already that there was no value for money for Canadians. Now I would like to turn to another important aspect, which is the national security exemptions. In April 2020, your department invoked the national security exemptions to grant GC Strategies—a company that, I should add, should be entirely banned from contracting with the Government of Canada—a $13.9-million uncompetitive contract on behalf of the CBSA.

Why did your department feel that GC Strategies was the only company able to complete the work necessary on ArriveCAN for such a significant amount of money?

10:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

First, we need to look at the national security exception invocation. This is a tool that exists in trade agreements to give Canada the ability, in the case of a crisis, to move quickly outside of the current competition. Each trade agreement allows this.

There was not a one-to-one relationship between the NSE and GC Strategies. Rather, the Public Health Agency, the CBSA and various departments came forward and said that because of the global pandemic, they had a need to move quickly, and they asked us at PSPC for that authority. In consultation with legal counsel and PSPC, national security exemptions were granted. That does not mean or guarantee a sole-source strategy in any procurement process.

I'm going to pause here, because I have an expert in NSEs with me.

Dominic.

10:10 a.m.

Dominic Laporte Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

I have nothing to add there. Thank you.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much for that response.

I repeated this yesterday and I'll say it again today, but this a reminder that the Auditor General stressed in her remarks, my goodness, close to a month ago now—this is how long her report and the truth of it have resonated with Canadians—that the pandemic crisis situation was not an excuse for the lack of value for money.

I will follow up on my question, Ms. Reza.

In the letter the CFO of CBSA wrote to you for the national security exemption, he stated that this contract would be necessary for three months to improve low-touch IT. Why would any company need $13.9 million for three months of work?

10:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

I believe that when the CFO wrote to PSPC seeking the invocation of a national security exemption, described was a whole series of different low-touch technologies to keep all of the various borders open. I don't remember seeing anything in relation to any one contractor or any $13.9 million.

I know that in the response PSPC provided, we limited it and said their NSE would be valid for a three-month period, because, again, with the evolving pandemic, we did not want to give a long-term NSE that would create expectations or further contracting requirements.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Further to this, the contract in question required a document safeguarding capability, DSC, security requirement that was not met by GC Strategies. This requirement was removed 14 months after the contract was initiated.

Why were security requirements that the contractor couldn't even meet put in place for a sole-source contract?

10:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

I'm going to ask Madam Poulin to answer.

10:15 a.m.

Catherine Poulin Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch , Department of Public Works and Government Services

It's important to distinguish between the security clearance required of an organization or staff and a capability required of an organization. It's not necessary for an organization to have the capability when the contract is awarded. However, the organization will need to have the capability when it's required as the contract is being carried out. So it's normal for a contract to be awarded without a capability having been verified through the contract security program.

In the case of GC Strategies, the company didn't need that capability to carry out the contract. The contract was therefore amended to remove that requirement.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I'd like to thank the witnesses for their answers.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Next is Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you.

Ms. Reza, we appreciate you being ready to come to the first scheduled meeting, which was cancelled. Thank you for rescheduling to come again.

When you are the signing authority for a contract with a client department, can you explain the division of responsibilities between the client department and you?

10:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

These divisions of responsibility between the client department and the contracting authority are actually well documented in the Treasury Board policy on contract management.

I'm going to to turn to Dominic, who will give us a good overview of it.

10:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Dominic Laporte

Thank you.

In terms of the division of roles and responsibilities, it's important to keep in mind that the client will define their official requirements. They define their budgets. Basically, they're going to contact the procurement authority with the goods or services they want to procure in mind, and it's up to PSPC to provide advice on the process best suited for the procurement depending on the nature of the services, whether there is a supply arrangement in place or there is a standing offer, to make sure that if this is beyond their client's delegation authority, they can leverage our tools. It allows for a process that is usually competitive. It's streamlined, and we can also benefit from supply arrangements that exist.

In terms of our role, we are the contracting authority, so we're going to make sure, for example, that things are within budget. We take care of the financial evaluation of the bids received. In terms of the technical evaluation, that is up to the client. There are clearly roles and responsibilities spread between the client department and the contracting authority, and oftentimes PSPC plays a role.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Just to be clear, does PSPC have the authority to go through and verify the information being provided by client departments?

10:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Dominic Laporte

We certainly do. This is something that has been truly reinforced since November 28 with our client departments. On December 4, we sent directives to all of our staff to make sure we have a task authorization checklist. That is mandatory for requesting information. It is not necessarily a checklist that has been provided by the client. It's about seeing copies of CVs, having an actual attestation of the resources and permission to use their names and seeing that their experience is accurately represented. All of these things are now being double-checked by PSPC when we're using our authority.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Ms. Reza, as the Auditor General noted, PSPC did raise the issue and pushed back in the case of at least one contract that went to GC Strategies. Can you tell us more about that?

10:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

Our team has shared a package of information around that, but to describe it in more detail, you will see that there is an exchange of emails. As just noted, the sole-source justification is the responsibility of the department. They created a sole-source justification. The contracting authority pushed back several times, looking to ensure that the information was accurate and that it was really clear. We had to be convinced that there was only one IT firm that could provide staff augmentation on this, looking at the timelines that were provided.

There was a whole series of steps, with a challenge function at the DG level within CBSA, to outline specifically what was required to move forward.