Public Accounts Committee on March 19th, 2024

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Would it be five, 10, 20, 50?

[David Yeo]

This is a challenge that we have with our indigenous culture. We don't have enough trained, technical people coming out of the indigenous side of things. I don't know the exact number.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

How much investment has your company made into training indigenous people?

[David Yeo]

From a training perspective, I would say that we have had experiences with Algonquin College in the past. I have given out an aboriginal achievement award to technical people who have passed the bar at Algonquin. I've brought them in for a 12-week placement at the company, and then they have either stayed or have moved along.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Would it be fair to say that because of your claim of indigenous status, you're very comfortable taking...under the procurement allocation or under a set-aside contract, yet Dalian's investment into either hiring or training and building capacity within that indigenous group is non-existent?

[David Yeo]

The PSIB—the PSAB at the time—is not actually in the spirit of that aspect. It's in the spirit of trying to get access to government contracts and being able to compete against bigger companies.

Absolutely, we've done what we've done in the past with Algonquin and have tried to hire indigenous people, which we have as internal staff and also as contractors, but I just don't have the current number of how many indigenous contractors we have today.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Can you kindly provide that?

[David Yeo]

We can, for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I appreciate that, Mr. Jowhari.

We'll look for that response, as well, Mr. Yeo.

This is now our fourth and last round.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to pursue this line of misrepresentations, Mr. Yeo.

I know that Mr. Barrett and other members have asked you some questions that, in my opinion, really challenge your credibility.

Both you and the president of Coradix, Mr. Wood, testified on October 31, 2023. Both of you were quite emphatic that both businesses are regularly audited by Indigenous Services Canada with respect to the procurement strategy for indigenous business and that you both had been receiving clean audits.

However, that was a misrepresentation. It was a lie because Indigenous Services Canada said that all it does with respect to the set-asides that both of your companies operate under from time to time are pre-audits. It doesn't do post audits.

Do you agree with that assessment from Indigenous Services Canada?

[David Yeo]

I would absolutely agree with that, yes, for sure.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

However, you didn't qualify that to the committee.

[David Yeo]

Well, it's your policy. I understand that we go through audits, but I think that's a normal course of action for ISC in its entirety, not just for our company.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I think it's a pretty big deal, sir, when you lead the committee to believe that you're running a clean business, that your indigenous set-asides are legitimate and are not operating under a phantom scheme. I know that you've been heavily criticized by a number of indigenous organizations that you're running this.

In fact, Botler even made the same allegation, so these are real concerns. I think you have to be honest with committee members, sir, because although you haven't been sworn to tell the truth, there is a presumption that you will tell the truth at committee. There are consequences when people do not tell the truth at committee.

Ultimately, we're going to find out by the end of this summer through Indigenous Services Canada, which is going to audit everything you have done and that Coradix has done for the last eight years, hopefully, if not longer, with respect to all the indigenous set-asides. I think Canadians deserve to know whether or not indigenous Canadians have benefited from this particular government operation. If they haven't, sir, then you'll have some questions to answer. I put that out to you, sir.

The other aspect that concerns me is your relationship with GC Strategies. Is it accurate, sir, that the one and only time you worked with GC Strategies was on the Botler task authorization?

[David Yeo]

That I would have to ask our staff. I'm not exactly sure if there was anything else in relation to working with GC Strategies. I'd have to ask our staff about that.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Let's talk about Botler for a moment, please. You do know that Kristian Firth from GC Strategies testified that on not one occasion but upwards of five occasions he deliberately and intentionally doctored work experience for both of the Botler partners. He claimed it was a mistake.

Given my former background as a Crown attorney, I can tell you that all accused persons, all criminals, claim they made mistakes.

What in fact Mr. Firth did was to commit forgery, and it was a fraud on the government. What concerns me, sir, is that The Globe and Mail recently reported that both your company Dalian and Coradix received those doctored résumés, those fraudulent forged résumés, and you in fact forwarded those on to the government. That was recent news to me and perhaps to this committee, because we were all led to believe that it was Kristian Firth at GC Strategies who delivered those directly to the government.

It really begs the question: If you had only a limited amount of time with GC Strategies, why would you accept their material at face value? Now you're implicated as part of a joint venture, as a party to the offence of fraud and forgery. It's no wonder the RCMP is currently investigating your company and Coradix. Just because you haven't been contacted doesn't mean you are in the clear.

You talked about having quality management systems in place. Why didn't the quality management systems catch these fraudulent résumés?

[David Yeo]

Yes, for sure it's a good question.

First and foremost, we're as dismayed as the rest of the committee with the findings on GC Strategies. We were definitely not aware of what was going on below our subcontractor. The contract between us and GC Strategies is exactly that. We have no reference to Botler in this case and what information was being provided by GC Strategies to us.

There are aspects—I will be honest with you—of third party verification of employment and that sort of thing, but there's no industry standard that everybody uses in the entire professional services market.

What we've learned from this is that, even though we do our due diligence on security clearances and putting the CVs together, and the categories and the grids, and staffing those up to CBSA, we likely need to put third party verification of employment in place to allow us to smoke out this kind of stuff. We just weren't aware of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is the time.

Mr. Chen, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Yeo, you've had a long career. You joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1987. You were a reservist from 2001 until 2016. You were hired, as we heard today, by National Defence in 2023.

Earlier today in your testimony you said that it was fairly common for many government employees to have a company on the side. You said that was your own perception. Could you elaborate on what informed your perception that many government employees run side-hustle businesses?

[David Yeo]

I can tell you this. In Canada with our taxation system and everything being so expensive with inflation and everything else, whether you're a government employee or whether you're someone else not working with the government, there's likely a chance that you might have something else on the side to help pay the bills and put groceries on your table.

I'm an entrepreneur. I try to start things all the time. I'm looking for multiple sources of income, and I'm sure many Canadians are in the same boat, whether they're working for the government or not.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

With all due respect, sir, that was not my question.

You said earlier that your perception, your own perception, was that many government employees have corporations on the side.

My question to you is what informed your perception that other—not you but other—government employees, and in fact many of them, as you stated, have corporations on the side?

[David Yeo]

Again this is my own perception. Whether they have corporations or whether they have things after hours, that's their own business. I can tell you that from my perspective, I'm out doing what I need to do for the government during the day, but then I'm an entrepreneur at night and trying to do other things.

I can't imagine that others aren't similar.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

You talked earlier about how you got into securing government contracts. In fact, you said that you “go after” them.

I want to hear from you, Mr. Yeo, about how easy or how difficult has it been for you to secure government contracts. Would you consider yourself successful at being able to secure government contracts for work through your company?

[David Yeo]

In my opinion anyway, Dalian has been a very good success story up until recently with all of this hype about me being an employee prior to the ArriveCAN days and during ArriveCAN. This is what PSAB actually does for us. It allows us to be able to be a part of the solution with the government as far as indigenous companies are concerned and to learn about how to interact with the government through contracting, through procurement and through staffing and all of the other aspects that go along with that, so absolutely, yes.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

You understand, as a former employee of National Defence and as somebody who has had many interactions with government over the years, that public servants play a fundamental role in serving this country and their conduct is carefully watched. It's important to uphold public trust, because Canadians put their faith in the government to deliver programs and services, and that includes the people who are hired within that public service to act in the most transparent, accountable and ethical ways.

Would you say that it can be seen as a perceived conflict of interest when you have been able to be so successful and yet I hear a very different narrative on the ground from people who are everyday Canadians unable to access government contracts and from companies that are doing good work and innovative work that have told me they're unable to even crack the door open? Do you find that there is a perception that there is something that is allowing you to have access that other people cannot? Also, there is the fact that you have said today that it's common for people working in the public service to have corporations, as you have?

The narrative I hear from everyday people in my riding is that they can barely get home in time—going through traffic, working 10 hours a day—to prepare a meal for their family, and the last thing on their minds is to set up a corporation and have a side hustle where they can make more money and be able to afford the things they need.

I'd like to hear your comments on that, Mr. Yeo.