Evidence of meeting #110 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was yeo.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Isabelle Desmartis  Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources – Civilian, Department of National Defence
Troy Crosby  Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel Group, Department of National Defence

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 110 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Pursuant to the Standing Orders, members are attending in person in the room and possibly remotely by using the Zoom application.

This is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming consideration of report 1 of the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada, entitled “Report 1: ArriveCAN”, referred to the committee on Monday, February 12, 2024.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Department of National Defence, we have Bill Matthews, deputy minister; Troy Crosby, assistant deputy minister, materiel group; and Isabelle Desmartis, assistant deputy minister, human resources—civilian.

Mr. Matthews, thank you for coming in today on short notice. You'll be given a maximum of five minutes for your remarks. It's approximately five minutes. If you're wrapping up, I won't cut you off. We'll then proceed to a round of questions.

There are votes expected, I think, at 5:45, so we'll see how the bells work, although I expect we will be able to get through most of this meeting. We might end a little prematurely, unless there is unanimous agreement to continue to the bottom of the hour at 5:30, but we'll take that up when that comes up in case votes are delayed.

Mr. Matthews, you have the floor for about five minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Bill Matthews Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, committee members, and thank you for the opportunity to testify today as part of your study on ArriveCAN and to assist you in getting more clarity on the actions of Mr. David Yeo, now a former employee of the Department of National Defence.

In advance of today's session, the committee was provided with several documents that outline details and background on Mr. Yeo's employment with National Defence, which I hope you will find helpful in terms of establishing a common fact set as you proceed to study this matter.

It is important to note that persons hired to and within National Defence are expected to follow key policies, including the code of values and ethics and the Treasury Board directive on conflict of interest. Any employee who owns non-exempt assets and liabilities or is involved in any outside activities that might give rise to a real, potential or perceived conflict of interest in respect to their official duties must submit a confidential conflict of interest report within 60 days of signing their letter of offer. These expectations are laid out in every employee's letter of offer.

I would like to offer a short chronology of Mr. Yeo's time as an employee of National Defence.

Prior to his employment with the Department of National Defence, Mr. Yeo was a contractor with Dalian Enterprises and had been awarded several contracts by National Defence and other departments on behalf of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces.

On September 19, 2023, Mr. Yeo was hired as an indeterminate public service employee at National Defence as an IT-03. In his signed letter of offer, of which this committee has a copy, Mr. Yeo accepted the position with National Defence and all terms and conditions of employment, including the need to declare any conflict of interest within 60 days.

National Defence received Mr. Yeo's confidential conflict of interest report only on March 3, after information related to his business activities had come to the attention of the department. To be clear, this report was received after he had been suspended from his position with the department and 165 days after he began working as an indeterminate employee of National Defence.

While Mr. Yeo shared with this committee that he had taken steps to isolate himself from Dalian, even if this were true, this would not remove the requirement to disclose his business activities to his employer. Whether his failure to report his other activities to his employer was due to his poor understanding of the rules, poor judgment or poor ethics, we have evidence that Mr. Yeo carried on in his role with Dalian after joining the public service.

On February 28, when we learned of Mr. Yeo's involvement with Dalian and that he was also a member of our defence team, we immediately launched an internal investigation into the hiring process and placed him on suspension with pay that same day.

At that time, Mr. Yeo's probationary period was still in effect, and as part of our assessment on whether to terminate his employment, we had arranged to interview Mr. Yeo on March 6, 2024. Rather than proceed with that interview, Mr. Yeo elected to submit his unconditional resignation on March 5.

My priority is to ensure that investigations on several fronts continue to be thorough and are completed in a timely manner. This work includes an examination of the staffing process to hire Mr. Yeo and his activities as a contractor while working as an employee.

We have learned that Mr. Yeo continued with his role while an employee of the Department of National Defence and that through Dalian he had established other schemes with other companies. We are continuing our work to ensure that we have line of sight on any other companies with whom Mr. Yeo or Dalian is affiliated. As this work continues, we will continue to collaborate with other government departments to address issues surrounding contracting integrity in the public service.

We have also taken immediate action to address this issue. On March 14, the chief of the defence staff and I notified all internal leadership that PSPC had suspended the security clearances of certain companies, including Dalian, issued a stop work order for all related contracts and asked each internal organization to review any contracts they may have with those listed companies.

On March 15, I sent a letter to the Canadian Forces provost marshal to inform him of the current events related to Mr. Yeo and Dalian, and I will continue to keep him apprised of our work.

Last, we are implementing a new two-step process to ensure that conflicts of interest are identified both prior to hiring and upon issuance of an offer of employment.

I will conclude by thanking the members of this committee for their work on this issue, and I look forward to answering your questions.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

I'll turn right away to our first round of questions.

Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for up to six minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

The Ottawa Citizen dated March 13, 2024, reports the following:

There are no rules against serving military personnel or public servants at National Defence having contracts on the side with their own department or [other] federal government [departments]....

Can you confirm whether that is, in fact, the case?

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

There is no rule that prohibits, holus-bolus, such arrangements. The requirements are to declare and get a conflict of interest assessment done.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Sir, do you think it avoids the appearance of a conflict of interest when members of the public see a situation like the one we're talking about with Mr. Yeo? It gives rise to tremendous concern among Canadians, who are very worried about scarce tax dollars being given to individuals who are double-dipping as members of the bureaucracy and as those working in one- and two-man shops, taking 30% commissions and doing no actual work on projects.

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

Mr. Chair, there's a lot in that question.

I'll start by saying that public servants at National Defence comply with the same rules that all other public servants do. The same rules apply. We are unique at National Defence in that we have military members.

I want to remind the committee about reservists. We actually expect reservists to have other employment. We love reservists. We need reservists. That's a good thing. The key is to make sure their interests are declared.

I don't have an issue with public servants doing other work on the weekends or in the evening, on their own time, if it's properly declared and assessed by an independent person, and if we all agree there is no conflict. I have an issue when the conflict is not declared.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It's a very straightforward question. We'll just close that one up: Do you see how there could be a perception issue among members of the public when an individual is both a contractor for and a regular employee of the same department? Do you see how that could be a perceived conflict?

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

In cases of an employee contracting with the same department, I think there's an additional test in terms of potential conflict of interest.

Would I say to you that it should be completely prohibited? No, I would not. However, I can see how, if it's not properly explained, it would create perception issues.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It certainly does.

Will you provide all documents and records related to Mr. Yeo's employment to the committee?

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

I will provide what I can.

I believe we have already provided some documentation to the committee, as I mentioned in my opening remarks. If there's something specific you're looking for in addition to that, I'm happy to take it back.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Do you have further information you'd be able to furnish us with?

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

Off the top of my head.... I'm trying to think of something that would be relevant that we haven't provided already, and I'm coming up with a blank.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Do you have the March 3 conflict of interest report you referred to?

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

We can provide that.

I will tell you that Mr. Yeo believes he had no conflict, so there's nothing in there.

If that's of interest, I'm happy to provide it.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It is of interest.

What was his security clearance for his role?

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

His security clearance, both as a contractor and as an employee, was top secret.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What was the description you provided for his job?

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

The description of his job....

How much time do we have, Mr. Chair? This is a little complicated.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Perhaps you could give me about 15 seconds.

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

He was a specialist in bridging information flow between networks of different security classifications to make sure that the information could flow seamlessly without compromising the security of the higher network.

I'm happy to elaborate on that later, if we have more time.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

He resigned before he could be interviewed about this conflict of interest. That was what you said in your opening statement.

3:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

That is correct, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What was the nature of that interview going to be? What was that going to look like?

3:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Bill Matthews

We were heading down a process of, in all likelihood, terminating his employment. He was still under probation. Obviously, before doing that, we wanted to give the employee a chance to tell his side of the story. He elected to resign before that happened.